Strantz and early Kidd

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Just played Tobacco Road.  I was enticed by Ran's review, and I had a great time.  Off the tee, TR plays easier than it looks.  The challenge is in the approach to the greens.  Playing it a second time, I will be smarter about approach angles.  Nevertheless, the greens are severe, especially when the wind is blowing (15-20 mph when I played).  Shots held low under the wind just didn't seem like they would work for many approaches.  I felt compelled by the design to launch the ball into the air to have any chance of holding the green (or getting to the proper segment of the green).  Needless to say, I had mixed success with high shots in that wind.  Some of Kidd's pre-Gamble designs (e.g. Castle) have been criticized for greens that reject shots.  Why not the same criticism for TR?  Is it because significant wind is not typical at TR?  Is Ran's enthusiasm for TR an outlier?  As a newbie, I am trying to learn when "exciting" and "creative" greens are "fun" versus when they are "over the top."

[Ally Mcintosh]

Excellent question, Glenn. I haven't played Tobacco Road so can't make that comparison. I happen to quite like The Castle Course with its wild greens but believe criticism comes about when you mix heavily undulating greens with a lot of run-offs and shedding contours. When you mix heavily undulating greens with kick-plates and gathering back-stops, they seem much more palatable.

[Tim Gavrich]

I wonder if part of this has to do with TR's recent switch from bent to Bermuda greens, with the putting surfaces being particularly firm as they begin their new life. I haven't been to TR in a few years so I'd be interested to test this theory.

[Philip Hensley]

I wonder if part of this has to do with TR's recent switch from bent to Bermuda greens, with the putting surfaces being particularly firm as they begin their new life. I haven't been to TR in a few years so I'd be interested to test this theory.

I was going to suggest that as well.


Still, the greens are plenty big enough that low shots will hold, provided you have played for the proper release.

[BCowan]

The greens and their maint meld is the best part of TR.  They were mint when I played them.  Now the fairways were a soup salad in many areas which doesn't help ground game options when they are presented.  The hard part is arriving to the green with the same golf ball you started the hole with  . 

[A.G._Crockett]

FWIW, the greens in this part of the world (I'm in the Triangle, about an hour from Tobacco Road) are as firm as I've EVER seen them; not just firm for this time of year, but firm for ANY time of year.  We've had an usually dry year so far, and bent grass greens are playing like the greens keepers like to have them in May and June before the really hot weather comes.  I've only played one bermuda greens course recently, but those are even more firm.

Glad you enjoyed Tobacco Road!  Your analysis about the tee shots being easier than they appear is spot on, and so is your observation that you better hit the correct part of the green.  Both are Strantz hallmarks.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but Tobacco Road was only 6500 or 6600 yards from the back tees when built.  As severe as some of the shots were, there was no need to attack with driver if you were concerned about the severity, and the clubs you are hitting into greens are relatively short irons, with a couple of exceptions.  So it's easier to accept the severe penalties that one might incur for missing a shot at the wrong moment.  It's not normally a windy place, either; I'd say that's one of the main differences between it and The Castle Course, which makes the Castle Course that much more severe.

[Carl Rogers]

Tom, TR is still that length.
I have only one problem with the course and that is the approach shot to hole 9, insanely too too severe!

[Sean_A]

The Castle has been eased over several winters.  The Road has a handful of very severe greens, much more so than Castle ever did. Tom is right...its the wind which is the big difference though.  I would point to ground game as way to cheat the wind, but in my experience neither course is suited for that type of game...making the greens that much more severe.  I think the severity is different.  At Castle, many greens are built up and tilted.  With wind swirling and little opportunity to bump balls in because of crap drainage, the requirements can be very demanding.  At TR, many greens have odd shapes making putting from one end to the other very problematic in that the putting surface must be left to get to the hole.  There are also some greens which are wide, but not very deep which when can't be played on the ground are very difficult targets for handicap golfers.  When a green does open for the ground game, the turf is too wet to pull it off.  Lets hope the new bermuda greens solve this issue.

Ciao

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Although many of Tobacco Road's greens are large in square feet, they play much smaller due to their slopes and irregular shapes.  And few of the holes accommodate a run up because of bunkering and turf conditions (at least when I played).  It is indeed a fairly short course, which makes some of the shot demands more reasonable.  I had fun because I didn't worry about score and just enjoyed the ride.  Although wind may make some of TR's demands too harsh for stroke play, wind might make it an even more exhilarating match play course.  Having seen one's opponent play himself into to trouble, a player would need tactical awareness and skill to take advantage.  On the other hand, a player could apply enormous pressure by succeeding with a daring shot.

[Jon Wiggett]

I will back up what Sean has written about the Castle Course. As I understand it, they failed to put in suitable drainage and also did not sand cap the 50 yards of approach to the greens as was originally planned. This more or less killed the ground game and therefore compromised the design badly.


Jon

[A.G._Crockett]

Tom, TR is still that length.
I have only one problem with the course and that is the approach shot to hole 9, insanely too too severe!

Yes, but what a thrill if you pull it off, right?

Seriously, that shot is a microcosm of why TR doesn't climb higher in the rankings; the difference between the course rating and the slope is one of the higher ones you'll ever see.  That shot into 9 is either one of the best of your life, or a double bogey.  A bogey golfer has zero chance on that shot, and much of the course is that way.

That said, if I had one more round of golf to play, I'm not sure but what I wouldn't pick TR.  I just laugh the entire time I'm there.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, TR is still that length.
I have only one problem with the course and that is the approach shot to hole 9, insanely too too severe!

Yes, but what a thrill if you pull it off, right?

Seriously, that shot is a microcosm of why TR doesn't climb higher in the rankings; the difference between the course rating and the slope is one of the higher ones you'll ever see.  That shot into 9 is either one of the best of your life, or a double bogey.  A bogey golfer has zero chance on that shot, and much of the course is that way.

That said, if I had one more round of golf to play, I'm not sure but what I wouldn't pick TR.  I just laugh the entire time I'm there.

The one time I played Tobacco Road, I hit my approach to 3 feet on #9 and made birdie.  So it can't be THAT hard.


The shot I had Carl's reaction to was the approach to 15.  You have to have the distance EXACTLY right, and be able to spin the ball a little bit, to get it to stop on the green -- even on the bail-out to the right.  I didn't think the bogey golfer had any way to play that hole.

[A.G._Crockett]

Tom, TR is still that length.
I have only one problem with the course and that is the approach shot to hole 9, insanely too too severe!

Yes, but what a thrill if you pull it off, right?

Seriously, that shot is a microcosm of why TR doesn't climb higher in the rankings; the difference between the course rating and the slope is one of the higher ones you'll ever see.  That shot into 9 is either one of the best of your life, or a double bogey.  A bogey golfer has zero chance on that shot, and much of the course is that way.

That said, if I had one more round of golf to play, I'm not sure but what I wouldn't pick TR.  I just laugh the entire time I'm there.

The one time I played Tobacco Road, I hit my approach to 3 feet on #9 and made birdie.  So it can't be THAT hard.


The shot I had Carl's reaction to was the approach to 15.  You have to have the distance EXACTLY right, and be able to spin the ball a little bit, to get it to stop on the green -- even on the bail-out to the right.  I didn't think the bogey golfer had any way to play that hole.

On 15, it's a total crapshoot if you are going to be able to see the pin from ANY place your tee shot ends up.  And if you're on the wrong side of the green, three putts is really, really good.  Also a good microcosm of TR, and a good reason that scratch golfers score well and bogey golfers probably didn't bring enough golf balls.

As to your birdie on 9, if we assume that golf is in some sense a zero sum game, you're going to lose your ball and make a pick-up double there next time you play.  Book it...

[Tom_Doak]

As to your birdie on 9, if we assume that golf is in some sense a zero sum game, you're going to lose your ball and make a pick-up double there next time you play.  Book it...

Nah, I've got confidence there.  It seems like I always pull off the hardest shots on courses, and then make a mess of the simpler holes.


But you reminded me of a story.  One of the times I went to Pine Valley, it was as the guest of a member from Chicago, and as an 8- to 10-handicap, I was by far the worst golfer in a group of 8.  The first day, one of the guys made birdie on the 8th hole, twice in the same day.  At dinner that night, he said aloud that the hole wasn't nearly as fearsome as it looked, and he was sure he would play it in even par or better the next day ... and there was like $600 on the table immediately, betting against him.


Of course, he was my partner the next morning in our matches.  He drove it perfectly into the middle of the fairway, dumped his second shot short of the green into the sand, and made seven.  And he did not ace the hole in the afternoon to make up for it 

[Ryan Farrow]

I just had my second play of the course about 2 weeks ago. I disagree with your premise that these greens are difficult and they look nothing like the early DMK greens that I have seen photos of. Most of the Tobacco Road greens are very receptive as long as you hit the right section of the green. I think about a half dozen of them are basically 2 separate greens and if you miss your target by 20 yards you could still be on the green but have an impossible putt to the days hole location.


I thought there were missed opportunities to make things play a little more difficult like #2, if you are approaching from the right side over the bunkers you should not be able to keep one on the green (except for a brilliant flop shot), but Mike Strantz built up the entire back of the green, allowing the shot to play easy and look hard, much like the bathtub on #9. As long as you hit a half decent wedge you will probably end up with a 10 footer or less for birdie.   


The bogey+ golfer is absolutely screwed on a number of holes out there. Even though there may be routes around the forced carries they are sometimes goofy, like having to lay up with a 25 yard shot because you cannot make a 100-150 yard carry.

[Anton]

I am a big fan of Strantz's work.... much more than the work of DMK ( and that is not a put down of Kidd's work as I was one of the first to play Bandon and have enjoyed numerous tracks of his).  It is just that Strantz courses have more variety, creativity, and no two holes on any of his courses feel the same.  Yes his courses are quirky, but taking those risks while still maintaining playability makes them even more attractive. 


I am fortunate to fly into Raleigh a few times a year on business and make the trek to TR whenever possible.  I have played it when I was a 2 handicapper and bombing 300 yd drives, and now as a 8-10 handicap hitting it at 240 "- ish" yards off the tee.  I have found little difference in the 'enjoyment factor' because the yardage is extremely manageable, greens are large & receptive, and the carries are not obscene. 


To the point of it not being fair to bogey + golfers, I feel not every course (public or private) should need to cater to all levels of play.  It may be better financially to broaden the spectrum level but that was not the intention when Strantz was hired to build the course.  He was given chaotic terrain on which to paint a masterpiece that would excite and thrill golfers - mainly more seasoned players.  Per the course's website [font=] "it was Strantz’s goal to test “a player’s eye, determination, and wits."[/font]

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I can't speak to DMK courses as I've only played the Castle course, and thus don't consider myself qualified to speak on his designs.

I will say about Mike Strantz that I much prefer Caledonia over Tobacco Road. The latter I've played two or three times and, unless I can take some buddies to see it for their first time, have no real interest in going back. I think golfers should play it once, and be tricked and goaded at every turn, but after that… the course loses interest IMO.

Caledonia I hope to return to once a year or so (I am sure to included it on the itinerary for my college team's spring break trip). It's a solid, good test of golf that offers creativity, variety, and everything else that I look for in a solid golf course. Without trickery. Even the much maligned ninth "fits" just fine, as I see it.

I need to get to Tot Hill Farm at some point, though… 

[Paul Carey]

This discussion is a good one and I love TR.  15-20 is very windy for that part of the country.   Certainly not unheard of but certainly a windy day.

[glenn.hackbarth@gmail.com]

Thanks to all for the interesting discussion.  I am playing TR again today in better weather (warmer and much less wind).  Eager to see how my impressions change going around a second time in improved conditions.  I am certain they will.  In any event, I am sure to have fun.  My initial question was couched as a comparison of TR and early-Kidd, trying to understand why they might be viewed differently.  My intent was not to criticize either one.  In fact, I enjoy both.  TR was my first Strantz course but I have played Kidd courses dozens of times (principally Bandon and Tetherow).  Tetherow has challenging greens that many players consider "over the top", but I have always enjoyed the challenge of negotiating the sometimes extreme slopes.  In due course, a skilled player can learn how to use the undulations in his favor.  Less skilled players, and first-timers, often grind their teeth.

[Tom_Doak]

I can't speak to DMK courses as I've only played the Castle course, and thus don't consider myself qualified to speak on his designs.

I will say about Mike Strantz that I much prefer Caledonia over Tobacco Road. The latter I've played two or three times and, unless I can take some buddies to see it for their first time, have no real interest in going back. I think golfers should play it once, and be tricked and goaded at every turn, but after that… the course loses interest IMO.

Caledonia I hope to return to once a year or so (I am sure to included it on the itinerary for my college team's spring break trip). It's a solid, good test of golf that offers creativity, variety, and everything else that I look for in a solid golf course. Without trickery. Even the much maligned ninth "fits" just fine, as I see it.

I need to get to Tot Hill Farm at some point, though… 

I do like Caledonia a lot.  It's just a tiny piece of land, and it's amazing how much variety was created there.

[Anton]

Caledonia is the work of a brilliant artist.  Given such a small piece of property (100 acres?) and to be able to inject so much variety/creativity...... just a fun experience to play there. 


Someone asked me what I thought of Caledonia when I first played there.  My summary was "it is the size of Merion but the secluded feeling of Pine Valley."  Despite the small footprint, every hole is presented on it's own stage.  Only a handful of holes (ex.1, 2, 10, 12) do I find mundane there.... and that is not saying they are bad holes.  It just means the rest of the course raises the bar so high. 


Possibly my favorite characteristic of Strantz courses is that each hole is set up like a stage.  Very rarely can you see adjacent holes and if they are visible, then it is small glimpses to enhance the excitement of what is yet to come or what you have already conquered.  This is very true at another one of my favorite courses, Royal New Kent (before the housing development). 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I do like Caledonia a lot.  It's just a tiny piece of land, and it's amazing how much variety was created there.

Yes, particularly since a good chunk of the land is water and thus not really "usable."

FWIW I measured in Google Earth and was surprised that it said 150 acres: https://cl.ly/411O1V400o3Y. But again that includes a lot of the water, so the land itself may be about 100 acres.