Common sense attack from the pros and governing bodies

[Andrew Carr]

What does viewership have to do with any of this? (He asked, not knowing himself whether it's a valid question, or not)

To me, it doesn't, but to the governing bodies I'm sure it matters a lot.  I'm willing to concede the point rather than have an argument about a loss in viewership, so that the people who do not want to see a roll back in the technology can offer other reasons for their position.

[BCowan]

Andrew,

   I think everyone on this website would support a rollback (we aren't anyone of importance), but that is a pipe dream and it is not going to happen.  I don't want Classic courses hosting majors, their fairways get narrowed and some had their routings changed in the 70's due to increase attendances and Resistance to scoring reasons.  Plus privates can jack up their down strokes and dues if they have hosted Major in last 35 years.  The genie is out of the bottle and it isn't going back.  You are basically asking the average viewer to buy a Zach Morris cell phone.  Ain't happening.  More Public Erin hills tracks is the future, good for the Game's Image too in a post Caddie Shack era. 

[Kalen Braley]

I don't buy that ratings and numbers are based mostly on the long ball.


Its more about having a compelling tournament, which we've had time and time again at nearly every pro tourney long before the long ball.  Were all those Palmer and Nicklaus wins any less compelling because they hit thier 4 iron 185? Perhaps the greatest Masters tourney ever was in 86...long before all that.

Baseball is still alive and well more than a decade past the steroid era.  Golf will be fine too...

[jeffwarne]

Would you really quit watching golf if a long Tour drive was 300 and an average Tour drive was 260?
and they hit 4 iron from 185 -Jack Nicklaus often did and he was the longest in the game for awhile
I defy anyone to tell the difference with the naked eye.

Yes, folks are mesmerized to watch a pro hit it so much farther then their own potential.  Why did baseball popularity grow during Steroids era?  More homers. 

Agree 100% that folks are mesmerized "watching pros hit it so much farther than their own potential"
I was one of those watching JN hit it 300 while my best was 260.
Is a 16 year old hitting it 285 now watching DJ at 330 more mesmerized than I was watching JN.
Of course not.


as for baseball becoming more popular during the steroid era-I'd say they lost their real fans(including me) right about then, and replaced them with knuckleheads, just like we did in golf during the Tiger-golf is coool era.
In both cases it wasn't good for the game as a whole.
Quality over quantity.

[Kalen Braley]

The longball in baeball and the long ball in golf are complete apples vs oranges.


Even back in the roid era you may have 4-5 homers per game in a 3 hour time period.  In golf you have long dong shots on every hole, by nearly every player, multiple times per round.  There are literally hundreds and hundreds of long dong shots every day on tour.  Its ho hum.


P.S.  If chicks dig the long ball so much, why do we only get 2 hours of TV coverage per year of the long drive championships in Nevada?   

[BCowan]

Would you really quit watching golf if a long Tour drive was 300 and an average Tour drive was 260?
and they hit 4 iron from 185 -Jack Nicklaus often did and he was the longest in the game for awhile
I defy anyone to tell the difference with the naked eye.

Yes, folks are mesmerized to watch a pro hit it so much farther then their own potential.  Why did baseball popularity grow during Steroids era?  More homers. 

Agree 100% that folks are mesmerized "watching pros hit it so much farther than their own potential"
I was one of those watching JN hit it 300 while my best was 260.
Is a 16 year old hitting it 285 now watching DJ at 330 more mesmerized than I was watching JN.
Of course not.


as for baseball becoming more popular during the steroid era-I'd say they lost their real fans(including me) right about then, and replaced them with knuckleheads, just like we did in golf during the Tiger-golf is coool era.
In both cases it wasn't good for the game as a whole.
Quality over quantity.

   Once the kid is now used to watching DJ hit it 330, he will be deflated to watch him hit it 290 with a roll back.  He isn't going back to Zack Morris cell phone as in old technology.  He can't yet grasp the big picture, which ignorance is Bliss a wise man said. 

You and I are curmudgeons and people with core values, our opinions aren't relevant.  The Genie can't get put back in the bottle with Professional sports.  The best thing is to shift our focus to smaller events that roll things back voluntarily and focus on their core audience.  It's just like finding great music, you have to do work these days to find it, it isn't played on the radio for the most part.  It's up to us to start supporting things we value and let mainstream go. 

[Kalen Braley]

Ben,


I have to agree.  Look at all those budding baseball prospects who quit playing because they couldn't hit a 480 foot moon shot every 10 at bats!!   

[jeffwarne]

The longball in baeball and the long ball in golf are complete apples vs oranges.


Even back in the roid era you may have 4-5 homers per game in a 3 hour time period.  In golf you have long dong shots on every hole, by nearly every player, multiple times per round.  There are literally hundreds and hundreds of long dong shots every day on tour.  Its ho hum.


P.S.  If chicks dig the long ball so much, why do we only get 2 hours of TV coverage per year of the long drive championships in Nevada?   

priceless
+1
Unearned wedges are ho hum as well--zzzzzzzzz

[BCowan]

Then by your outlook, Zach Johnson should move the needle.       The long drive championship is the same thing as the home run derby, its a good laugh.  It ain't the McGuire vs Sosa competition in the season which put people in the seats game after game. 

[Kalen Braley]

The longball in baeball and the long ball in golf are complete apples vs oranges.


Even back in the roid era you may have 4-5 homers per game in a 3 hour time period.  In golf you have long dong shots on every hole, by nearly every player, multiple times per round.  There are literally hundreds and hundreds of long dong shots every day on tour.  Its ho hum.


P.S.  If chicks dig the long ball so much, why do we only get 2 hours of TV coverage per year of the long drive championships in Nevada?   

priceless
+1
Unearned wedges are ho hum as well--zzzzzzzzz

Just one more cause I can't resist.  Do you know what replaced the Super Bowl last year as the most watched event in the US?


The home run derby at All-Star weekend.  Cause peeps just can't get enough of the long ball!! 

[Matthew Essig]

The longball in baeball and the long ball in golf are complete apples vs oranges.


Even back in the roid era you may have 4-5 homers per game in a 3 hour time period.  In golf you have long dong shots on every hole, by nearly every player, multiple times per round.  There are literally hundreds and hundreds of long dong shots every day on tour.  Its ho hum.


P.S.  If chicks dig the long ball so much, why do we only get 2 hours of TV coverage per year of the long drive championships in Nevada?   

priceless
+1
Unearned wedges are ho hum as well--zzzzzzzzz

Just one more cause I can't resist.  Do you know what replaced the Super Bowl last year as the most watched event in the US?


The home run derby at All-Star weekend.  Cause peeps just can't get enough of the long ball!! 

Why don't they use metal bats if everyone wants the long ball?

[jeffwarne]

The longball in baeball and the long ball in golf are complete apples vs oranges.


Even back in the roid era you may have 4-5 homers per game in a 3 hour time period.  In golf you have long dong shots on every hole, by nearly every player, multiple times per round.  There are literally hundreds and hundreds of long dong shots every day on tour.  Its ho hum.


P.S.  If chicks dig the long ball so much, why do we only get 2 hours of TV coverage per year of the long drive championships in Nevada?   

priceless
+1
Unearned wedges are ho hum as well--zzzzzzzzz

Just one more cause I can't resist.  Do you know what replaced the Super Bowl last year as the most watched event in the US?


The home run derby at All-Star weekend.  Cause peeps just can't get enough of the long ball!! 

Why don't they use metal bats if everyone wants the long ball?

+1
Can you imagine how dumb they'd feel if they allowed titanium bats and improved dimple patterns and covers on baseballs that forced them to add and maintain costly 10-15 feet of outfield every few years to classic stadiums(creating spectator bottlenecks and reduced capacity), move back the mound for safety, games became home run scoringfests rendering recordbooks meaningless causing more pitchers to be used, the game and strategy to fundamentally change, and more time to play the game?
Who would think that was a good idea?


Oh wait, that's championship golf..........

[JMEvensky]

Why don't they use metal bats if everyone wants the long ball?

The fear of decapitated third basemen.

[Matthew Essig]

Why don't they use metal bats if everyone wants the long ball?

The fear of decapitated third basemen.

The fear of a decapitated pitcher is there right now with wood bats. No, it is because it would break the game. It would make stadiums obsolete. I see it as the exact same issue, but we let it happen and baseball didn't.

[BCowan]

I am pretty sure ball parks are smaller then they were 40 years ago.  No need for metal bats, everyone is a winner. The masses wanna see home runs. 

[Matthew Essig]

I am pretty sure ball parks are smaller then they were 40 years ago.  No need for metal bats, everyone is a winner. The masses wanna see home runs.

Ball parks may be smaller than they were 40 years ago. But that is like saying the USGA moved the tees up for an eagle on a par 5, or a drivable par 4. The metal bat/wood bat comparison is different.

[Don Jordan]

we play bifurcated now - I can't use my Cleveland wedges with box groves when I play a national amateur but can when I play at my home course in a normal competition round. A bifurcated ball for major amateur events and pros would save so much stuffing around.

[jeffwarne]

we play bifurcated now - I can't use my Cleveland wedges with box groves when I play a national amateur but can when I play at my home course in a normal competition round. A bifurcated ball for major amateur events and pros would save so much stuffing around.

Exactly-we're already bifurcated.
Those wedges and others subject to the 2010 groove rule are legal until 2024, but USGA events and PGA tour have conditions of competition rules banning them.


Seems really simply to have a condition of competition rule further reducing COR on a driver-or Condition of competition ball.


NONE of this would affect 99.9% of golfers, the same as the groove rule doesn't, and I guarantee very few even on this board were even aware that such a condition exists for grooves for certain events.


They KNEW they had a distance problem and chose to address it by attempting to reduce Bomb and gouge on the wedge end.
Ridiculous logic-and ridiculously solveable

[BCowan]

They went after the wedges because the cats are smart.  The masses don't care about wedge play on flat greens.  They are blown away by the distances the pro's hit it.  When Tom over exaggerates that every course is lengthening is not correct.  Even the ones that go from 6700 to 7100 for the tips, the expense annually is peanuts and grossly over exaggerated.  The Ohio Golf Association used a one ball for the AM and it only lasted 1 year.  Even if they reduced the ball or driver, Pro golf is boring, the courses are so boring to me.  Jeff, go off the grid!  Support alternate ideas, Kramerica! 

[Steve Lang]

 


Home runs, the ultimate long ball, but they have a unique place in b-ball.  Perhaps more like water hazards in golf if you're on the wrong side?..


https://youtu.be/U157X0jy5iw


Can't wait to hear the words "non-conforming" again in relation to golf balls..  aaahhhh, remember the Robin Hood ball?


unused-vintage-robin-hood_1_b7d4a621732528455051f8dea9f94b45.jpg

[Tom_Doak]

They went after the wedges because the cats are smart.  The masses don't care about wedge play on flat greens.  They are blown away by the distances the pro's hit it.  When Tom over exaggerates that every course is lengthening is not correct.  Even the ones that go from 6700 to 7100 for the tips, the expense annually is peanuts and grossly over exaggerated.  The Ohio Golf Association used a one ball for the AM and it only lasted 1 year.  Even if they reduced the ball or driver, Pro golf is boring, the courses are so boring to me.  Jeff, go off the grid!  Support alternate ideas, Kramerica!

Ben:


Which are you saying:


a)  The public will object if the Tour pros hit it less far, and Tour revenues will decline; or
b)  The public will object if they have to play with a reduced-distance ball themselves.


If (b), I'd agree, but nobody here wants to make everyone switch tomorrow.
If (a), so what?  Declining Tour revenues might be GOOD for the game overall.  Or do you really think people are going to quit the game themselves because Rory can't hit it as far anymore?

[BCowan]

A. Yes. people won't quit playing, but i see a decline in viewership and or attendance. 

[jeffwarne]

Just finished lesson with a guy who hits it maybe 180 off the tee.


Out of the blue he asks me a couple questions about golf on TV.
He then says "Golf on TV is boring because they ALL hit it so far"
"Why can't they just slow down the ball or the clubs?"


I said "you mean like baseball and other sports"


he said, "yes, I quit watching tennis for the same reason-it was all power after the equipment changed"


When we assume EVERYBODY likes the long ball we assume wrong.
People are attracted to golf for the variety of ways one can excel and when one element (in this case power) is over rewarded, it changes the game.


Super Long hitters are always exciting and the best players usually are long-no one is denying that-we'd just like to see them as exceptional, not normal due to time spent with engineers.


No one is coming to take your fancy drivers.....
and the best will further separate themselves rather than being in a wedgefest putting contest logjam on a bastardized course that does all kinds of things that slow the game down and make the game less fun for the rest of us.

[BCowan]

Jeff,

  The guy you gave a lesson to is a hardcore golfer/curmudgeon like us (you are giving him a lesson in March in 30 deg weather).  He isn't the Masses.  The Football fan is the crossover golf fan, and that is what the tour cares about.  They dig the long ball.  They move the dial, the tour doesn't care about the Hardcore Golf Fan, that's why I can't watch tour championship in October.  Stop trying to change mainstream. 

  Ask the guy you gave a lesson to if he would watch a persimmons tourney on his laptop at a cool golf course?  Just like a great band these days, one has to search for it, they won't find it on the radio.  shit Zeppelin would of been poor if they came onto the scene now.   

[Jason Thurman]

Wasn't Mike Davis talking about different ball specs for different courses, rather than different ball specs for the pros vs amateurs?


I don't see the Tour ever rolling back to a shorter ball. As others point out, I don't want to go watch pros hit the ball as short as I hit it. But I wouldn't mind seeing the next US Open at Merion played with a shorter ball, while Opens at Erin Hills continue to be played with a ProV1-type. And having different ball ratings for different courses seems like it would help the equipment companies sell even more balls, and seems like it would help the USGA make the game even more expensive for players who would have to stock up on more equipment and keep track of yet another tedious rule on top of the original rule of "Hit ball, find ball, hit ball. Continue until in the hole."


In other words, it seems like exactly the kind of thing the USGA would do.