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A.G._Crockett

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #200 on: March 13, 2017, 09:39:00 AM »
I'll restate the most pertinent facts:

In the last half-century, the average age of major championship winners is 32.
75% of majors in that period of time have been won by players under 35 years of age.
Less than 1% have been won by golfers over 40, and less than 6% by golfers over 35.

That's a lot of data, and those numbers indicate, at least to me, that top-level golfers age at pretty close to the same rate as athletes in other sports.  (Again, the curve that most resembles that of pro golfers is MLB pitchers.)

You can think whatever you wish about the age-old question of golf as a game vs. a sport, and I'd be the first to admit that it is possible to play golf at a higher level longer than most other sports; certainly longer than either collision sports like football or highly aerobic sports like basketball.  But those are matters of degree, not indications that golf is fundamentally different at the highest levels vis-a-vis that aging process.

So to return to the original question that Tom posed in post #170, the overwhelming likelihood is that neither Day nor McIlroy will be winning major championships in their early 40's.  If they aren't, it won't be because of their swings or their workout habits or anything else more complicated than the simple fact that they got old.

Overwhelming?  Of the top 44 majors winners, 25 won majors after age 35.  15 won majors after age 40.   (Source: Wikipedia, plus my counting.) Those golfers you noted earlier, who stopped winning by their mid-30s, are the exception, not the rule.

I think you're not quite using the stats correctly in that last post.  The % of events won by golfers overall says nothing about the odds of any specific golfer to win.  And the numbers show that golfers who win majors (multiple) in their 20s and/or early 30s are a good bet to win later.  Over 50% have won after age 35; and over 33% have over 40. 

No huge surprise.  They proved they have what it takes, mentally and physically.  And because golf is so un-athletic, they carry those abilities with them, longer than any athletic sport I know of.   

   

Jim,
I'll accept and agree 100% with the idea that golfers who win early are more likely to win later, too.  This is true in every sport, I think; the better a given athlete is at 20, the longer they tend to be good.  MLB teams draft hard throwers coming out of HS because those pitchers tend to have more room to decline and still pitch effectively vs. the guy who throws off-speed stuff; when the slower thrower declines, he's throwing BP.

I'm going to disagree with you, though, about what the overall stats tell us about the odds for an individual.  If 76% of majors over the last 50 years have been won by players 35 and younger, and only 8% by golfers 41 and older, I think you can look at any player in their 20's and say that their window for winning begins to close in their mid-30's, and is very close to, if not completely closed by the age of 40.  So if you look at Speith, McIlroy, Day, Fowler, DJ, or any of the other of the young guys that are so impressive right now, and try to project their career path, the wise bet would be that none of them will win a major after the age of 40, and maybe not even after the age of 35.  If one of them does, that doesn't change the overall picture very much; it turns them into an outlier like Nicklaus and Boros.  The odds are still going to be the odds.

I also have to disagree with you about golf being "so un-athletic", though we'll NEVER settle that debate.  For sure, it isn't aerobic, for sure it isn't about brute strength, or quickness, or lateral movement, or vertical leap, or a bunch of other stuff that the NFL combine tests.  But at the Tour level, there is a lot of athleticism in what those guys do.  And that WILL decay with age, beginning in the mid-30's; swing speed will decline, hand-eye coordination will decline, strength that enables one to maintain spine angles will decline, and so on.  The margins at that level are just tiny, and it doesn't take very much decay at all for a given player to no longer be in contention for winning.  Nobody gets a pass from Father Time, including pro golfers, which is why winning majors hugely favors those below 35.  It just does.

So to return to Tom Doak's restatement of the original question in the thread, I agree that it is unlikely that Day or McIlroy will be winning majors at the age of 40; it's far more likely that they won't even be in contention regularly by that age.  But it won't be because they train hard and swing hard NOW; it'll be because that's the way top level sports work for MOST people that God has touched and given the ability to be transcendent at some athletic endeavor.  They'll just get old.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 10:03:43 AM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Pat Burke

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #201 on: March 13, 2017, 03:00:35 PM »
As the golf business has shrunk, competitive golf has grown.
From junior golf through college, amateur, and professional levels,
 There are an enormous number of players attempting to compete
In professional golf.
Equipment advances have allowed all players to maximize their distances and consistency. When I was a kid and the neck of my Penna driver broke, it was like the loss of family to me.  It took me trying countless drivers to find one I was confident with.  Now we test and change regularly with the quality control AND generic sameness  of drivers, we can always find a club that works fairly quickly.
The equipment advances also allow bigger players to find properly weighted and balanced equipment.
Bigger/faster athletes and a heck of a lot of them, will make it tough for older players to stay competitive.  Millions of dollars will make it tough for SOME to stay insanely driven to be at the top. 
If I remember correctly, similar conversations have happened in many generations.

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #202 on: March 14, 2017, 06:18:30 AM »
As the golf business has shrunk, competitive golf has grown.
From junior golf through college, amateur, and professional levels,
 There are an enormous number of players attempting to compete



It's true of many sports, and the competition finds itself earlier and earlier. I saw a friend's son play a basketball playoff game for Northfield Mount Herman (NMH) recently and they have SEVEN senior Division I basketball recruits this year, and two of their best players were Juniors:


https://www.nmhschool.org/athletics/winter/basketball-boys/varsity


NMH pick games in the fall get watched by college scouts.


Reality is, I have no change against any of them on the court, but I am pretty sure I could smoke most of them in golf, and all of them in water skiing. :) The days of the "all around athlete" are gone...
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

archie_struthers

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #203 on: March 14, 2017, 10:57:59 AM »
 ::)




Maybe no one concurs but its more about the deterioration of sensory skills and eyesight if you ask me.  Plenty of guys are flexible and strong these days into their 40's but don't seem to keep nerves vis a vis chipping and putting. Tigers demise as best was all about that , his injuries masked this to a great degree.

John Kirk

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #204 on: March 14, 2017, 11:09:47 AM »
I agree with Archie's last comment.

The average age of tour winners is pretty young.  If this is a trend, and the average age of tour winners is actually falling, then I would attribute it to earlier, more intense training.

I remember when Bill James presented a study which showed that baseball players peak around age 27.  This was from an early Baseball Abstract, perhaps in the early 1980s.

Here's another article discussing the age of PGA Tour players:

http://www.golf.com/golf-plus/most-pga-tour-pros-reach-peak-prize-money-age-33-will-new-generation-change

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #205 on: March 14, 2017, 12:10:42 PM »
...
The average age of tour winners is pretty young.  If this is a trend, and the average age of tour winners is actually falling, then I would attribute it to earlier, more intense training.
...

I attribute it to the ball. It used to take more time for players to gain the maturity to handle the curvature of the ball flight. Now you can just bang away at it much more than before.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #206 on: March 14, 2017, 12:17:16 PM »
I agree with Archie's last comment.

The average age of tour winners is pretty young.  If this is a trend, and the average age of tour winners is actually falling, then I would attribute it to earlier, more intense training.

I remember when Bill James presented a study which showed that baseball players peak around age 27.  This was from an early Baseball Abstract, perhaps in the early 1980s.

Here's another article discussing the age of PGA Tour players:

http://www.golf.com/golf-plus/most-pga-tour-pros-reach-peak-prize-money-age-33-will-new-generation-change

Good article; thanks for the link. 

You're spot on about what Bill James said; the one exception to the rule is pitchers, who develop at all sorts of different ages, and whose peaks therefore are different as well.  They develop a new pitch, like Rivera did, or learn not to try to strike out every batter, like Koufax learned, or become a reliever instead of a starter, or whatever.

And the Posnanski article that I referenced earlier compares golfers to pitchers, aptly, I think.  Golfers may not develop as  unusually as pitchers, but experience and knowing courses and managing their strengths and weaknesses may help them last longer than other athletes.  Certainly we see more success by old guys at Augusta and in the British Open, where knowing the golf course is even a bigger advantage than "normal".

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/joe-posnanski/does-age-really-matter-golf-yes-it-does/
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #207 on: March 14, 2017, 02:00:23 PM »
Certainly we see more success by old guys at Augusta and in the British Open, where knowing the golf course is even a bigger advantage than "normal".

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/joe-posnanski/does-age-really-matter-golf-yes-it-does/


How many old guys have competed well at Augusta since they changed the course?


In The Open, I don't think the old players' success has been so much about "knowing the golf course."  (After all, the old guys know Riviera and Bay Hill and other courses better, too.)  To me, it's that


1)  the courses play much shorter than what you find in the U.S.,
2)  the approaches are built to accept lower-trajectory shots, and
3)  the wind rewards players who can shape their shots.


All of these give Tom Watson and Darren Clarke a better relative chance again Dustin Johnson, than either Augusta National or the typical weekly Tour venue does.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #208 on: March 14, 2017, 05:20:47 PM »
Certainly we see more success by old guys at Augusta and in the British Open, where knowing the golf course is even a bigger advantage than "normal".

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/joe-posnanski/does-age-really-matter-golf-yes-it-does/


How many old guys have competed well at Augusta since they changed the course?


In The Open, I don't think the old players' success has been so much about "knowing the golf course."  (After all, the old guys know Riviera and Bay Hill and other courses better, too.)  To me, it's that


1)  the courses play much shorter than what you find in the U.S.,
2)  the approaches are built to accept lower-trajectory shots, and
3)  the wind rewards players who can shape their shots.


All of these give Tom Watson and Darren Clarke a better relative chance again Dustin Johnson, than either Augusta National or the typical weekly Tour venue does.

Tom,
Agreed about reasons that older players fare well at the British.  They know more about how to play links golf, and the courses are, for the most part shorter.

As to ANGC, I think there are still older guys playing well there.  Langer was in contention after three rounds last year, but shot 79 on Sunday to fall to 24th, tied with Stenson, among others.  Westwood finished second, and Larry Mize made the cut, fwiw.  In 2015, O'Meara finished T22, and Clarke and Singh both made the cut.  In 2014, Jimenez finished 4th, Langer finished T8, Couples was T12, Stricker was T31, Olazabal was T34, and Singh, Clarke, Mize, Weir, and SANDY LYLE, all made the cut.

I suspect that the old guys fare well at ANGC relative to even regular Tour events precisely because they do NOT try to overpower the course, and because they know the areas where they simply cannot hit their approaches to.  But I've never played the course, before or after, so I'm only speculating.  But I DO feel confident in saying the older players, even now, fare better at ANGC than they do elsewhere.  (It is also possible that they fare better at ANGC simply because there are more of them playing, and because of the limited field; a statistical illusion, if you will.)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones