[Jay Mickle]

 
I know that bunkers are hazards and come with consequences, but why so much greater than for pros or those who compete in tournaments where there is bunker etiquette is adhered to.
Pros do not have to hit out of foot prints, a poorly raked bunker, multiple different types of sand even on the same course, etc. The etiquette of golf insofar as maintaining bunkers and repairing ball marks has degraded much over time. Why should the everyday golfer who even struggles from a good lie in a bunker be required to play from a lie not intended by the architect but created by a prior player? We do allow ball marks to be repaired.
A couple of recent rounds at Tobacco Road got me thinking, The Road has a local rule the permits a player to lift a ball in any waste area, smooth the area and replace the ball. No more castigation of the idiot who is responsible for the bad lie. No more slowing the pace of play by calling all of your playing partners to come ad look at your impossible lie.No more complaints about the rakes with no teeth.  No more excuses at the 19^th hole. The average golfer who struggles with any sand shot would have a fighting chance, the better golfer would have the lie his favorite PGA pro has on TV. 
 I fully realize that TR is by virtue of its vast waste areas where carts use the waste areas as part of the cart path system are a special case, but it does provide food for thought. Such a rule would not only level the playing field but likely speed up pace of play.

[Carl Rogers]

Jay, I agree.
I play on courses in which bunker maintenance is approximately zero.  And if that is the case, why have them?
Do you any of you know courses that have removed bunkers to reduce maintenace costs, speed up play and reduce the game's intimidation factor for the beginner?

[Thomas Dai]

A course not that far from me suffers from native deer roaming around the neighbourhood, jumping fences etc. As a result there are lots of hoof prints in the bunkers. The course has dealt with this by introducing a local rule that permits the player to place his ball in the sand if it would otherwise be lying in a hoof print. Seems a sensible measure.
Atb

[Kyle Harris]

What. The actual.

[Kyle Harris]

No more castigation of the idiot who is responsible for the bad lie.

That would be the guy who hit it there in the first place.

You.

[Kyle Harris]

With some apologies for my snarkiness, it's a bit straining for me to read this well-beaten rhetoric.

With the latest proposed rules revisions, the governing bodies have made it clear that Bunkers remain a special case in terms of golf and their rules and place are integral to the game.

Consider:

1. The vast majority of golf courses are located in areas where naturally exposed sand does not occur. As such, to codify the existence of a bunker and define it (more on this later) shows that these areas shall not be treated as other areas.

2. The Bunker is the second most-defined area in golf (after the hole, and more deeply defined than teeing ground and putting green). The Rules of Golf read with a reluctance as to the maintenance and setup of a golf course. Yet, the bunker is specifically a hollowed-out area where the ground is replaced with sand or the like. That is a borderline construction parameter.

3. The proposed 2019 revisions eliminate the word "Hazard" from the rule book, and also more clearly define the areas that are presently treated as hazards as areas where a ball is likely to be lost. This pertains to Bunkers in the sense that the rhetorical hazard that is the Bunker is much clearly. Presently, Bunkers are not Hazards as the rules go. These are two different areas with two different sets of privileges bestowed upon the player as far as play goes. The proposed revisions, thankfully, further segregate these areas by allowing the player to either find and play the ball in the"Penalty Area" as though from the "General Area" or drop under rules similar to those found for both types of "Hazards." This has the far reaching consequence of potentially softening the potential Lost Ball penalty (again, see the proposed definition for Penalty Area) and also further separates Bunkers from other parts of the golf course.

4. With the three items above, it is therefore obvious that bunkers are both strictly defined areas that are considered different from other parts of the golf course.

To codify Bunkers as an area where the player may improve the lie to their desire would not only codify boorish and irresponsible golfer behavior, but also further serve to segregate the better player from the worse. The pace of play argument is a canard because play will be delayed just as much by the golfer improving the lie (if not more).

Give me the ability to improve my lie in the sand at a place like Tobacco Road and I lose all fear of the golf course. I ignore this so-called local rule when I play there.

[Dan Gallaway]

First year Chambers Bay opened. I was in a 6 inch deep footprint in the sand.  This could not have been the intent of "play it as it lies".

[Kyle Harris]

First year Chambers Bay opened. I was in a 6 inch deep footprint in the sand.  This could not have been the intent of "play it as it lies".

There's always the option of declaring the ball unplayable. One could make this argument for any assortment of bushes, trees, and other foliage found throughout the golf course.

[Wayne_Kozun]

First year Chambers Bay opened. I was in a 6 inch deep footprint in the sand.  This could not have been the intent of "play it as it lies".

Why not?  Isn't the origin of bunkers burrows created by sheep to get shelter from the wind?  Is that much different than a footprint?

[Bob Simons]

I believe a great deal of "everyday players" would just take it upon themselves to move the ball out of the footprint. Am I wrong in thinking that those who truly play the ball down are in the minority? I know my 73 year old father would definitely take it out of the footprint, he rolls the ball in the middle of the fairway

[Joe Hancock]

This thread is important as it points out the slippery slope between golfers who don't show proper etiquette followed by the an unsustainable level of grooming that clearly benefits the better golfer which then becomes the only acceptable solution. It appears the notion "rub of the green" is an antiquated one.

[Sean_A]

Joe

I wouldn't care if there was a footprint in the sand reaching to China...if I was allowed to take a penalty drop just as is the case for water.  I think that many folks would come to accept crap sandy conditons if this were the case.  But to just leave a 20 handicap guy flaying in a shit hole bunker because it satisfies some throwback horse's neck idea of the importance of sand is daft.  I don't enjoy watching guys hack from rough...why would I want to see it from sand?  Make pros play from shit hole bunkers if needs be, but why not offer a penalty drop for folks that pay for a good time?  That way bunkers can be nasty and shitty and everyting sadistic bastards want to see    No worries, take the penalty of one doesn't think e can pull the shot off...just like anywhere else on the course.

Ciao

[Pete_Pittock]

Joe

I wouldn't care if there was a footprint in the sand reaching to China...if I was allowed to take a penalty drop just as is the case for water.  I think that many folks would come to accept crap sandy conditons if this were the case.  But to just leave a 20 handicap guy flaying in a shit hole bunker because it satisfies some throwback horse's neck idea of the importance of sand is daft.  I don't enjoy watching guys hack from rough...why would I want to see it from sand?  Make pros play from shit hole bunkers if needs be, but why not offer a penalty drop for folks that pay for a good time?  That way bunkers can be nasty and shitty and everyting sadistic bastards want to see    No worries, take the penalty of one doesn't think e can pull the shot off...just like anywhere else on the course.

Ciao

Sean,
Unplayable lie penalty-one stroke. two of the three options drop within bunker. An unplayable lie can be declared anywhere on the course, except in a water hazard.

[Peter Pallotta]

The 20 handicapper flays around in perfectly manicured bunkers just as much as he does in gnarly pits of dirt pockmarked with footprints. That's one of the many reasons why he's a 20 handicapper and not, say, a 16 or a 12 or an 8. He also can't putt very well, and often flubs his chips, and on many occasions slices one off the tee into the woods. Those are other reasons why he is a 20. So we either ban him outright from our golf courses or we cut down all the trees, install 8 inch cups, have greens that funnel in from the edges, fill in all the bunkers and level the sod over them, cast a spell that prevents wind from ever blowing, and drain off any hint of water anywhere on the golf course -- or we with some measure of good grace accept the weaknesss of the human condition and the nature and endless vagaries of the game.
Peter

[Sean_A]

Joe

I wouldn't care if there was a footprint in the sand reaching to China...if I was allowed to take a penalty drop just as is the case for water.  I think that many folks would come to accept crap sandy conditons if this were the case.  But to just leave a 20 handicap guy flaying in a shit hole bunker because it satisfies some throwback horse's neck idea of the importance of sand is daft.  I don't enjoy watching guys hack from rough...why would I want to see it from sand?  Make pros play from shit hole bunkers if needs be, but why not offer a penalty drop for folks that pay for a good time?  That way bunkers can be nasty and shitty and everyting sadistic bastards want to see    No worries, take the penalty of one doesn't think e can pull the shot off...just like anywhere else on the course.

Ciao

Sean,
Unplayable lie penalty-one stroke. two of the three options drop within bunker. An unplayable lie can be declared anywhere on the course, except in a water hazard.

Peter

Not quite the same thing as dropping from water...is it?  It seems odd to me that a penalty drop leaves one in the bunker (wtf is up that?) or loss of distance.  Never understood why this is the case.  I have never seen anyone take the loss of distance option, presumbly because they don't want to walk back.  I have seen tons of guys pick up after a few lost cause tries from bunkers.  Let a guy drop within 2 club lengths and now we have a better case for much rougher bunkers.  If we don't allow a penalty drop 2 clubs outside of sand, we will continue to get super manicured and expensive bunkers. It makes zero sense to me.

Ciao

[Josh Stevens]

Is this perhaps not so much an issue of rules or an observation that there is too much of these "waste areas" whatever they may be.


Maybe I'm old but these vast areas of artificial sand seem to be a recent phenom and we are a bit confused as to how do deal with them.


Obviously places like PV and Cypress and pinehurst had large expenses of sand that we re intentionally kept sandy and devoid of grass.  Meanwhile in the rest of the world it was in the lap of the gods- in winter when it rained the rough was green and rough and in summer it was dry and sandy. You took your chances depending on the season. But even at its driest, on the uk links or Australian sand belt, it was never just sand- it was sandy rough with whispy grasses and gumnuts and snakes and all sorts of nasty shit.


Play the ball as it lies

[Tim Gavrich]

It's a poor workman who blames his tools, and it's an ill-disposed golfer who blames his bad shots on others. If you don't like your lie in a bunker, don't hit it in the bunker.

[Jay Mickle]

Tim
That is a rather nasty response.No one is blaming tools or a bad shot on others but a lie in a footprint is the fault of another.

I recall a number of years ago that at the Memorial Jack Nicklaus had the bunker's raked with wide tined rakes that created furrows. There was outrage by the tour pros and the rakes were not used again.
My suggestion is not for a change to the rules of golf rather just a local rule probably more suited to resort courses and municipal courses where I expect the greatest offense in terms of bunker maintenance is to be seen. Also where such lies create the greatest problems and slow up play. I'm sure that the private courses everyone will leave the bunkers in a condition from which they would like to play.

[SL_Solow]

This "local rule " of which you speak.  is it authorized by the Rules?  When does fairness reach a point of no return.  Many players improve their lies in the fairway by "rolling the ball over".  They think that is fair.  Line drawing is a difficult process.  I have not spent enough time with the revisions to have drawn a conclusion.  But we need to be careful not to lose the essential challenge and appeal of the game, much of which derives from facing the irregular and ever changing characteristics of the natural environment unfettered by uniform playing fields.  There has always been a tension between those who want the game to be "fair" and those who are willing to accept some bad fortune in order to preserve some degree of the natural origins of the game.  I know where my sensibilities lie.

[Terry Lavin]

I tuned into the coverage of the Tour event from Mexico and immediately saw DJ apparently get the opportunity to grab his ball out of a greenside bunker where it appeared to lay in a big footprint. He was then allowed to have his caddie rake the bunker to perfection and he then placed his ball gently on the smooth sand. He still didn't get up and down but I was taken aback by the relief granted. Did anybody else see this?

[Steve Fekety]

I tuned into the coverage of the Tour event from Mexico and immediately saw DJ apparently get the opportunity to grab his ball out of a greenside bunker where it appeared to lay in a big footprint. He was then allowed to have his caddie rake the bunker to perfection and he then placed his ball gently on the smooth sand. He still didn't get up and down but I was taken aback by the relief granted. Did anybody else see this?

He was able to mark his ball because Rory's ball came to rest within inches of his ball.  He marked to allow Rory to play.  He was then able to recreate his lie after Rory's shot.

[Sean_A]

This "local rule " of which you speak.  is it authorized by the Rules?  When does fairness reach a point of no return.  Many players improve their lies in the fairway by "rolling the ball over".  They think that is fair.  Line drawing is a difficult process.  I have not spent enough time with the revisions to have drawn a conclusion.  But we need to be careful not to lose the essential challenge and appeal of the game, much of which derives from facing the irregular and ever changing characteristics of the natural environment unfettered by uniform playing fields.  There has always been a tension between those who want the game to be "fair" and those who are willing to accept some bad fortune in order to preserve some degree of the natural origins of the game.  I know where my sensibilities lie.

SL

Fairness has nothing to do with my argument.  Its about simplicity and consistency of rules.  The rules of golf are unnecessarily cumbersome to the point where a large percentage of players don't bother trying to adhere to the rules and a large percentage of golfers break the rules unintentionally.  I know all the rules mavens say its user error (basically...golfers are stupid and/or lazy...very similar to the argument of don't hit it there...which is idiotic).  Rules exist to make the game more playable in a consistent and easy to understand manner.  Its very few golfers who actually think the rules of golf serve these ends very well. The proof is in the pudding when people routinely chuck the rules aside.

I actually think the guys who wrote up a new set of rules (Ran's brother?) were onto something.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

The rules of golf are simple. What's idiotic is thinking or saying otherwise.

Most spectator sports are far more complex than golf, and are also easily understood by those watching (not even participating!).

When you find the ball, you hit it again. If you can't find it, or if you can't hit, you always have the option to go back from where you struck the last shot and try again. Add a stroke to your score for the privilege.

HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY BE SIMPLER?

Sean Arble,

What you are suggesting is that the position of the ball somehow grants a right as to the lie and your ability to play that ball. I've never encountered a footprint deep enough where I couldn't extract the ball and I regularly play on a modern course built on an extremely soft sand. Most would consider my attitude, and my ability to extract the ball, a skill; one that separates me from other golfers. What you rules populists fail to realize is that you are legislating yourselves on to another level of play simply by taking the learning of a skill away from those more skillful than you. Who the hell cares if you make an 8 in lieu of your customary 6? Aren't you all playing Match Play anyway?

If you're all constantly improving your lies, how do you ever get the experience of recovering from a bad break? Isn't that one of the appeals of golf?

I'm also not entirely sure the local rule wouldn't back fire and provide the means for a push for more stringent bunker maintenance. Truthfully, there is nothing more "fair" than playing the ball down, especially if it is known that the bunkers are not maintained for consistency or lie. Codifying the rules breaking is liable to push maintenance to the point where it is simply unnecessary to improve the lie.

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - I would shorten one of your key sentences, ie "Rules exist to make the game". If I make a mistake in a game of chess, I can't make it right on my next move by putting the pawn back to where it was before. Pawns aren't allowed to move backwards; that's one of the rules of chess. Those rules don't make the game any easier, and in fact they often make the game harder, especially for the beginner who is prone to making a lot of mistakes, including very serious ones. But without the rules, you wouldn't have a *game* at all.
Peter

[Sean_A]

The rules of golf are simple. What's idiotic is thinking or saying otherwise.

Most spectator sports are far more complex than golf, and are also easily understood by those watching (not even participating!).

When you find the ball, you hit it again. If you can't find it, or if you can't hit, you always have the option to go back from where you struck the last shot and try again. Add a stroke to your score for the privilege.

HOW COULD THIS POSSIBLY BE SIMPLER?

Sean Arble,

What you are suggesting is that the position of the ball somehow grants a right as to the lie and your ability to play that ball. I've never encountered a footprint deep enough where I couldn't extract the ball and I regularly play on a modern course built on an extremely soft sand. Most would consider my attitude, and my ability to extract the ball, a skill; one that separates me from other golfers. What you rules populists fail to realize is that you are legislating yourselves on to another level of play simply by taking the learning of a skill away from those more skillful than you. Who the hell cares if you make an 8 in lieu of your customary 6? Aren't you all playing Match Play anyway?

If you're all constantly improving your lies, how do you ever get the experience of recovering from a bad break? Isn't that one of the appeals of golf?

I'm also not entirely sure the local rule wouldn't back fire and provide the means for a push for more stringent bunker maintenance. Truthfully, there is nothing more "fair" than playing the ball down, especially if it is known that the bunkers are not maintained for consistency or lie. Codifying the rules breaking is liable to push maintenance to the point where it is simply unnecessary to improve the lie.

Kyle


Your opinion about the simplicity of the rules is your opinion, but I believe there is far more than enough evidence to suggest otherwise.  I will bet you $100 that the vast majority of people on this board have come across multiple situations while playing that they either handled wrongly or didn't know what the correct rule was.  I watch experts on tv take more time than to make breakfast with rulings.  I watch pros get rules wrong and get accused of getting rules wrong.  I can't understand why people dig their heels in about a 2 club length penalty drop from sand yet think its a good idea for water.  Totally bizarre and indicative of unnecessary complexity.


Explain sprinkler heads and moveable objects.  Why aren't they cases of tough?  Again, it isn't fairness I seek, its consistency and simplicity.  If we aren't taking free drops or penalty drops...ok...its the same throughout the course.  If we are, taking free drops and penalty drops, okay, its the same throughout the course. 


Pietro


I go along with everything you said.  However, I would point out that a great many people do play by rules, just not the same set as issued by the USGA because they are so complicated, terribly written and verbose.  One would need a porter to carry the Decisions and be willing to argue til death to properly follow the USGA rules.  Watch kids play sports, they get much of the rules right and make up the rest.  They sure look like they are playing games to me. 


Ciao

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