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Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #175 on: March 11, 2017, 11:28:03 PM »
...
The great gym experts out there...like Steve Mcgregor ...are aware of the stress placed upon the spinal area with these swing speeds and as such the gym programmes are based upon spinal stability as much as is possible.
Hence they stress glute strength and flexibility, hip mobility and strength, spinal muscle flexibility/strengthening exercises all in an effort to limit injury.
Again in my opinion eventually there is that point where the back/spine/support frame eventually just gives.
If someone is predisposed to such injuries their respective career ends earlier than somebody else.
So the premise that the modern game or swing or swing speeds will result in more "short" careers is in my opinion most probable.
Of course there will be outliers which people will be able to point to, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
...

This seems to speak to the so called "modern swing" where hip action is restricted as noted above. But, it does not speak to a swing such as Sam Snead's, which as we know did not appear to shorten his career. Sam regularly drove it 300 yards with inferior equipment, but always maintained the power was generated from the ground, and who cares if the ground gets worn out. :D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #176 on: March 12, 2017, 12:06:23 AM »
...
The great gym experts out there...like Steve Mcgregor ...are aware of the stress placed upon the spinal area with these swing speeds and as such the gym programmes are based upon spinal stability as much as is possible.
Hence they stress glute strength and flexibility, hip mobility and strength, spinal muscle flexibility/strengthening exercises all in an effort to limit injury.
Again in my opinion eventually there is that point where the back/spine/support frame eventually just gives.
If someone is predisposed to such injuries their respective career ends earlier than somebody else.
So the premise that the modern game or swing or swing speeds will result in more "short" careers is in my opinion most probable.
Of course there will be outliers which people will be able to point to, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
...

This seems to speak to the so called "modern swing" where hip action is restricted as noted above. But, it does not speak to a swing such as Sam Snead's, which as we know did not appear to shorten his career. Sam regularly drove it 300 yards with inferior equipment, but always maintained the power was generated from the ground, and who cares if the ground gets worn out. :D


REGULARLY 300 plus....must depend on what you consider being regular?
I can remember when Greg Norman was the tour long driver with an average barely over 270 yards.....so I don't think it was that REGULARLY

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #177 on: March 12, 2017, 12:28:54 AM »
MWP

Regularly means when the need or opportunity was there. As you probably know, with the spin characteristics of the old balls, it was not advisable to go all out on every drive. With the modern ball, it would seem to be advisable to go all out on every drive, as the penalty for slight misses has been reduced significantly.

During his first practice round at Sam's first tour event at the Hershey Open, he pumped two OB before driving the first green 330 yards away. This perhaps demonstrates the advisability of going all out driving the high spinning ball.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #178 on: March 12, 2017, 07:57:05 AM »
MWP

Regularly means when the need or opportunity was there. As you probably know, with the spin characteristics of the old balls, it was not advisable to go all out on every drive. With the modern ball, it would seem to be advisable to go all out on every drive, as the penalty for slight misses has been reduced significantly.

During his first practice round at Sam's first tour event at the Hershey Open, he pumped two OB before driving the first green 330 yards away. This perhaps demonstrates the advisability of going all out driving the high spinning ball.


It's not just the ball that's made it advisable to go all out on every drive.  They don't worry today about missing the sweet spot on a driver when it's the size of a dinner plate.


But that's part of my point ... everyone going all out all the time is not good for them physically, but they can't help themselves if that's what everybody else is doing, too.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #179 on: March 12, 2017, 08:58:44 AM »
But, my point was that Sam's swing was fundamentally different. He did not use the restricted hip turn that puts all the stress on the back.

Would a baseball player limit his career by generating power from the ground somewhat analogous to how Sam did?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #180 on: March 12, 2017, 09:07:59 AM »
...
The great gym experts out there...like Steve Mcgregor ...are aware of the stress placed upon the spinal area with these swing speeds and as such the gym programmes are based upon spinal stability as much as is possible.
Hence they stress glute strength and flexibility, hip mobility and strength, spinal muscle flexibility/strengthening exercises all in an effort to limit injury.
Again in my opinion eventually there is that point where the back/spine/support frame eventually just gives.
If someone is predisposed to such injuries their respective career ends earlier than somebody else.
So the premise that the modern game or swing or swing speeds will result in more "short" careers is in my opinion most probable.
Of course there will be outliers which people will be able to point to, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
...

This seems to speak to the so called "modern swing" where hip action is restricted as noted above. But, it does not speak to a swing such as Sam Snead's, which as we know did not appear to shorten his career. Sam regularly drove it 300 yards with inferior equipment, but always maintained the power was generated from the ground, and who cares if the ground gets worn out. :D


REGULARLY 300 plus....must depend on what you consider being regular?
I can remember when Greg Norman was the tour long driver with an average barely over 270 yards.....so I don't think it was that REGULARLY


+1
though to be fair, in Snead's early days there were more unirrigated fairways, making 300 more attainable
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #181 on: March 12, 2017, 09:22:42 AM »
Though to be fair,  modern fairways on tour run faster than greens in Sam's day.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Hancock

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #182 on: March 12, 2017, 10:38:12 AM »
Though to be fair,  modern fairways on tour run faster than greens in Sam's day.


Which really doesn't matter if there is no bounce after it lands. Which is why the modern club/ swing optimization calls for as long of a carry as possible. To be fair....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

BCowan

Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #183 on: March 12, 2017, 10:40:36 AM »
Joe,

   Spot on.  That's why Palmer drove the 346 yard 1st at Cherry Hills in the US Open with a wooden driver.   :o

Kyle Harris

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Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #184 on: March 12, 2017, 10:41:34 AM »
Though to be fair,  modern fairways on tour run faster than greens in Sam's day.


Which really doesn't matter if there is no bounce after it lands. Which is why the modern club/ swing optimization calls for as long of a carry as possible. To be fair....

Uh. What? Hitting it high with minimum spin is how to control the ball best in any condition, with any equipment.

Where to place the aforementioned situation is a different story.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #185 on: March 12, 2017, 11:03:12 AM »
Perhaps I didn't write my opening post clearly enough.


My new friend's premise was that pro golf careers would be shorter than in the past, because golf is becoming more physical.  It's not that training hurts the players, directly ... but they are training so that they can put much more stress on their bodies than the last generation did, with a different type of swing. 


Jack Nicklaus used to say that he never swung at more than about 85% of his capacity, because he valued consistency.  Do any of today's top players do the same?  I don't think so ... they swing harder, because the equipment has changed to allow it, and because they see everyone else doing the same and feel like they have to follow suit.  And that would cause them to get hurt more often, and to either retire earlier, or just to be pushed aside by younger, stronger guys, like in every other sport. 


The best golfers used to be competitive until their early 40's.  Do any of you experts foresee that outcome for Rory or Dustin or Jason Day?


P.S.  I agree that specialization is also a factor that will hurt longevity ... both from the physical standpoint and the mental.

Tom,

Ah, now THIS is a much, MUCH more interesting question to me!  Whether or not the biomechanics of a particular way of swinging a golf club are better or worse for the body over a long period of time is much more debatable than the role of fitness, which I don't consider debatable at all.

I don't know what will happen to Day or McIlroy in the years to come, of course.  My sense of it is that the reverse C swing is much tougher on the back than the modern swing with some degree of restricted hip turn, but I can't begin to give evidence for that.  And, as you've probably already figured out, I don't like anecdotal evidence that depends on one or two individuals for "proof".

But I want to throw out a stop sign on the idea that there were lots of pro golfers playing great golf into their 40's in days gone by; the facts don't support that.  Borrowing heavily from an article by Joe Posnanski, golfers thru the years have tended to age on a curve very similar to that of MLB pitchers; they peak in their late 20's or early 30's, and very, very few are excelling at age 40.  Of course there are outliers; there are in EVERY sport.  But Nolan Ryan throwing at 95 mph in his mid-40's, or Tom Brady winning Super Bowls in his late 30's doesn't tell us much; in the same way, Nicklaus and Boros winning a tournament in their mid-40's doesn't tell us much, either.

Since 1960, the average and median age for major winners is 32.  75% of the majors over the last half century have been won by players under 35; less than 1% have been won by golfers over the age of 40, and less than 6% by golfers over the age of 35!  And here's a list of golfers who won their last major when they were younger than 35:  Palmer, T. Watson, Ballesteros, Miller, Strange, Zoeller, Weiskopf, Olazabal, Couples, Azinger, and, of course, Tiger Woods.

So the data seems to suggest that no matter how they swing the club, by the time they are 35, McIlroy and Day will no longer be sitting on top of the golf world.  Their bodies may break down, just as Woods and Couples did, or they may lose parts of their game in a manner similar to Ballesteros or Miller, or they could have something else happen, as it did with Azinger.  But most likely, Father Time will jump out of the bushes and grab them just like he does with pretty much everybody.  The margins at the top are very, very small, and staying there for very long after your physical peak somewhere around age 30 just isn't likely.

 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #186 on: March 12, 2017, 12:00:56 PM »
Though to be fair,  modern fairways on tour run faster than greens in Sam's day.


Which really doesn't matter if there is no bounce after it lands. Which is why the modern club/ swing optimization calls for as long of a carry as possible. To be fair....

The news reports I have seen say courses are groomed for tour events including the direction fairways are mowed to improve roll.

Furthermore, ball manufacturers have been working on ball flight downstream to extend rollout.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #187 on: March 12, 2017, 12:20:21 PM »
Though to be fair,  modern fairways on tour run faster than greens in Sam's day.


Which really doesn't matter if there is no bounce after it lands. Which is why the modern club/ swing optimization calls for as long of a carry as possible. To be fair....

Uh. What? Hitting it high with minimum spin is how to control the ball best in any condition, with any equipment.

Where to place the aforementioned situation is a different story.


Control, or hit it far? In windy conditions or on narrow courses, I always thought it best to utilize a low ball flight for control.   But, I'm old....must be all that changed too.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #188 on: March 12, 2017, 12:25:12 PM »
I think there's also this: the collective meta-story, under which individual golfers find/create their own individual stories, has changed dramatically over the last 20 years. The traditional arc of a career -- Hogan fighting the hooks and just scraping by for years, until he finally dug his game out of the dirt and learned how to win --  has no meaning or even much romance for these youngsters anymore. For most of the latest generation of top golfers, their games weren't so much found on the golf course as they were bestowed upon them at birth, at a country club or learning academy. None of them feel that some kind of long professional apprenticeship is now necessary; the notion that you have to lose often in order to learn how to win is nonsense to them. None of them expect (or would for even a second stand) to be under the thumbs of the old veterans until they've somehow managed to earn their respect. The old idea that the Masters favours the player with a lot of experience on Augusta's greens, and that a first timer can't win there, is to them just ancient history, i.e. their grandfathers' story/narrative. Tiger's 'win for the ages' really was the turning point, i.e. the four minute mile was broken, and no competitive runner will ever again measure himself by that antiquated standard. Win young, win often, and maximize profits is the new story. For these young professionals there is not even the slightest sense that dues have to be paid; for them, paying dues is for losers.  And so the whole arc of a career is changed now, and dramatically shorted. When you don't have to (or, more importantly, don't expect to) wait 15 years for the gravy train to arrive and you already have it all right now, what's there left to hang around and hope for? Wrap up that story at 35, moved into a gated community and a 55,000 square foot home, raise a family, get into broadcasting (or golf course design), join Jordan's new club and mingle with celebrities from the world of film, fashion and sports for the rest of your life.
Peter       

« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 12:29:22 PM by Peter Pallotta »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #189 on: March 12, 2017, 12:29:10 PM »
I think there's also this: the meta-story, under which individual golfers find/create their own stories, has changed dramatically over the last 20 years. The traditional arc of a career -- Hogan fighting the hooks and just scraping by for years, until he finally dug his game out of the dirt and learned to win --  has no meaning or even much romance for these youngsters. For most of the latest generation of top golfers, their games weren't so much found on the golf course as bestowed upon them at birth at a country club or learning academy. None of them feel that some kind of long professional apprenticeship is necessary; the notion that you have to lose in order to learn how to win is nonsense to them. None of them expect (or would for even a second stand) to be under the thumbs of the old veterans until they've earned their respect. The old-idea that the Masters favours the player with a lot of experience on Augusta's greens, and that a first timer can't win there, is to them just that, i.e. ancient history, their grandfathers' story/narrative. Tiger's 'win for the ages' really was that, i.e. the four minute mile was broken, and no competitive runner will ever again measure himself by that antiquated standard. Win young, win often, and maximize profits is the new story. For these young professionals, there is not even the slightest sense that dues have to be paid; for them, paying dues is for losers.  And so the whole arc of a career is changed now, and dramatically shorted. When you don't have to (or, more importantly, expect to) wait 15 years for the gravy train to arrive and you already have it all, what's there left to hang around and hope for? Wrap up that story at 35, moved into a gated community and a 55,000 square foot home, raise a family, get into broadcasting (or golf course design), join Jordan's new club and mingle with celebrities from the world of film, fashion and sports for the rest of your life.
Peter       


Can you name one player who's actually done that? by choice?
even Duval kept trying
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #190 on: March 12, 2017, 12:35:33 PM »
Jeff -
they don't have to quit the game outright in order to quit the narrative.
I think AP was deeply troubled to find that he'd lost his edge long before he'd lost his desire to compete and to win; his ego was invested in it, and losing that edge was seen as a personal failure.
Do you think many in the latest generation of stars, wealthy beyond their wildest dreams before they are 30 and having won even Majors so early and so often, have much of their egos tied to keeping that edge?

BCowan

Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #191 on: March 12, 2017, 12:39:51 PM »
Fuzzy Zoeller won the Masters on his first try.  So if one wins at an early age like Jack Nicklaus they should try not to?  Many successful PGA pros went the long route by the Web.com to get to where they are. 

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #192 on: March 12, 2017, 12:53:42 PM »
Of course there are outliers; there are in EVERY sport.  But Nolan Ryan throwing at 95 mph in his mid-40's, or Tom Brady winning Super Bowls in his late 30's doesn't tell us much; in the same way, Nicklaus and Boros winning a tournament in their mid-40's doesn't tell us much, either.

I think it tells us a helluva lot.  In what athletic sport do men in their mid to late 40s win the most important championships in the world?  In what athletic sport does a 60 year old beat all the world's best, except for one, in the most famous championship on earth (and was about one inch away from beating them all)?

None.  The reason is simple.  Golf is not very athletic.  It's much more a game.  Plenty of 70 year-olds in average shape can play it. Top seniors can compete against world elite 25 year-olds, and beat many of them (sometimes nearly all).  If golf required almost any real athleticism, that would be impossible.  I strongly suspect that, at least till recently, practicing the game mattered far more than trying to improve as an athlete. 

You listed some golfers who did not win majors after 35.  Well, here are some golfers who did win at least one major after age 35:  Nicklaus, Boros, Mickelson, Singh, Hogan, Snead, Hagen, Player, Vardon, Trevino, Thomson, Floyd, Els, Locke, Casper, Irwin, Stewart, Crenshaw, Bubba Watson, Cabrera, O'meara, Zach Johnson, Larry Nelson, Hubert Green.  Many won after 40, and some after 45. 

Again I can't comment on the modern swing, though it seems to me guys like Spieth show you don't need to put your body at risk to win.  I do agree with you that we don't have enough information about Tiger, to know how his workouts impacted his golf game.  From a couple things I read, I get the impression that Tiger was more interested in body-building than he was real strength. 

 

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #193 on: March 12, 2017, 12:56:46 PM »

Jeff -
they don't have to quit the game outright in order to quit the narrative.
I think AP was deeply troubled to find that he'd lost his edge long before he'd lost his desire to compete and to win; his ego was invested in it, and losing that edge was seen as a personal failure.
Do you think many in the latest generation of stars, wealthy beyond their wildest dreams before they are 30 and having won even Majors so early and so often, have much of their egos tied to keeping that edge?



I think this is the key issue--how many of today's players will be willing to keep up the grind into their 40's,even if physically capable? Tiger Woods might have been their role model,but how many have his desire to chase history rather than a big bankroll?

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #194 on: March 12, 2017, 12:56:59 PM »
http://goo.gl/5nCCpf


Interesting comments from top coach Pete Cowan on this issue

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #195 on: March 12, 2017, 03:27:39 PM »
Though to be fair,  modern fairways on tour run faster than greens in Sam's day.


Which really doesn't matter if there is no bounce after it lands. Which is why the modern club/ swing optimization calls for as long of a carry as possible. To be fair....

Uh. What? Hitting it high with minimum spin is how to control the ball best in any condition, with any equipment.

Where to place the aforementioned situation is a different story.


Control, or hit it far? In windy conditions or on narrow courses, I always thought it best to utilize a low ball flight for control.   But, I'm old....must be all that changed too.

Control.

Judging the wind and the ability to aim/execute have nothing to do with the physics of launch. Whether or not promoting the ideal launch conditions is a good idea is part of the skill. You made mention of the course conditions and that is what I was addressing. Whether firm and fast or soft like chocolate pudding... high flight and low spin is what will be best controlled. Firm and fast adds the element of reading the golf course is all, which has nothing to do with launch conditions.

It's no different than firing a ball with a driver under ideal launch conditions in the opposite direction of the hole. Not a particularly intelligent use of the idea.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #196 on: March 12, 2017, 04:06:55 PM »
Of course there are outliers; there are in EVERY sport.  But Nolan Ryan throwing at 95 mph in his mid-40's, or Tom Brady winning Super Bowls in his late 30's doesn't tell us much; in the same way, Nicklaus and Boros winning a tournament in their mid-40's doesn't tell us much, either.

I think it tells us a helluva lot.  In what athletic sport do men in their mid to late 40s win the most important championships in the world?  In what athletic sport does a 60 year old beat all the world's best, except for one, in the most famous championship on earth (and was about one inch away from beating them all)?

None.  The reason is simple.  Golf is not very athletic.  It's much more a game.  Plenty of 70 year-olds in average shape can play it. Top seniors can compete against world elite 25 year-olds, and beat many of them (sometimes nearly all).  If golf required almost any real athleticism, that would be impossible.  I strongly suspect that, at least till recently, practicing the game mattered far more than trying to improve as an athlete. 

You listed some golfers who did not win majors after 35.  Well, here are some golfers who did win at least one major after age 35:  Nicklaus, Boros, Mickelson, Singh, Hogan, Snead, Hagen, Player, Vardon, Trevino, Thomson, Floyd, Els, Locke, Casper, Irwin, Stewart, Crenshaw, Bubba Watson, Cabrera, O'meara, Zach Johnson, Larry Nelson, Hubert Green.  Many won after 40, and some after 45. 

Again I can't comment on the modern swing, though it seems to me guys like Spieth show you don't need to put your body at risk to win.  I do agree with you that we don't have enough information about Tiger, to know how his workouts impacted his golf game.  From a couple things I read, I get the impression that Tiger was more interested in body-building than he was real strength.

I'll restate the most pertinent facts:

In the last half-century, the average age of major championship winners is 32.
75% of majors in that period of time have been won by players under 35 years of age.
Less than 1% have been won by golfers over 40, and less than 6% by golfers over 35.

That's a lot of data, and those numbers indicate, at least to me, that top-level golfers age at pretty close to the same rate as athletes in other sports.  (Again, the curve that most resembles that of pro golfers is MLB pitchers.)

You can think whatever you wish about the age-old question of golf as a game vs. a sport, and I'd be the first to admit that it is possible to play golf at a higher level longer than most other sports; certainly longer than either collision sports like football or highly aerobic sports like basketball.  But those are matters of degree, not indications that golf is fundamentally different at the highest levels vis-a-vis that aging process.

So to return to the original question that Tom posed in post #170, the overwhelming likelihood is that neither Day nor McIlroy will be winning major championships in their early 40's.  If they aren't, it won't be because of their swings or their workout habits or anything else more complicated than the simple fact that they got old.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #197 on: March 12, 2017, 04:28:19 PM »
A.G. Crockett

"I'll restate the most pertinent facts:

In the last half-century, the average age of major championship winners is 32.
75% of majors in that period of time have been won by players under 35 years of age.
Less than 1% have been won by golfers over 40, and less than 6% by golfers over 35."


AG_C...  8)  aren't you missing some 19% there in your facts???
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #198 on: March 12, 2017, 05:02:05 PM »
A.G. Crockett

"I'll restate the most pertinent facts:

In the last half-century, the average age of major championship winners is 32.
75% of majors in that period of time have been won by players under 35 years of age.
Less than 1% have been won by golfers over 40, and less than 6% by golfers over 35."


AG_C...  8)  aren't you missing some 19% there in your facts???


You are correct.  Here's a more accurate breakdown for major winners over the last 50 years:

76% by players 35 or younger
16% by players 35-40
8% by golfers 41 and older

Good catch on my error; thanks.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfers as Athletes
« Reply #199 on: March 12, 2017, 07:17:21 PM »
I'll restate the most pertinent facts:

In the last half-century, the average age of major championship winners is 32.
75% of majors in that period of time have been won by players under 35 years of age.
Less than 1% have been won by golfers over 40, and less than 6% by golfers over 35.

That's a lot of data, and those numbers indicate, at least to me, that top-level golfers age at pretty close to the same rate as athletes in other sports.  (Again, the curve that most resembles that of pro golfers is MLB pitchers.)

You can think whatever you wish about the age-old question of golf as a game vs. a sport, and I'd be the first to admit that it is possible to play golf at a higher level longer than most other sports; certainly longer than either collision sports like football or highly aerobic sports like basketball.  But those are matters of degree, not indications that golf is fundamentally different at the highest levels vis-a-vis that aging process.

So to return to the original question that Tom posed in post #170, the overwhelming likelihood is that neither Day nor McIlroy will be winning major championships in their early 40's.  If they aren't, it won't be because of their swings or their workout habits or anything else more complicated than the simple fact that they got old.

Overwhelming?  Of the top 44 majors winners, 25 won majors after age 35.  15 won majors after age 40.   (Source: Wikipedia, plus my counting.) Those golfers you noted earlier, who stopped winning by their mid-30s, are the exception, not the rule.

I think you're not quite using the stats correctly in that last post.  The % of events won by golfers overall says nothing about the odds of any specific golfer to win.  And the numbers show that golfers who win majors (multiple) in their 20s and/or early 30s are a good bet to win later.  Over 50% have won after age 35; and over 33% have over 40. 

No huge surprise.  They proved they have what it takes, mentally and physically.  And because golf is so un-athletic, they carry those abilities with them, longer than any athletic sport I know of.