Golfers as Athletes

[Steve Lang]

Nicklaus is an interesting case. He was a terrific athlete and played basketball and football. He was also very good to his body, seemingly not playing that much outside of tournaments and even then he did not play that often, similar to Tiger. I wonder if that made a difference in his career. He placed a high priority on family.

... and don't forget the chocolate milkshake bets!

[James Bennett]

Kyle Harris

interesting comments about Jack Nicklaus and his hip problems.

IIRC (from 'Golf My Way' I think) Jack had burser issues with his hip in the 1960's.
In 1967 (I think) it had flared up as bursitis, and the only way Jack could play was to hit a draw rather than his customary fade.
He won the Master's in 1967 hitting a draw, which he found of great use on #13 and another hole (I can't recall which one).

I don't have the book so I can't check my memory here.

James B

[cary lichtenstein]

if you look a Sam Snead's swing it was fuildity in motion, not sl with Tigers.Therein lies the rub, restraining the hip turn and excessive shoulder turn,

[Jon Wiggett]

James,


my bet is it would be the 10th.


Jon

[James Bennett]

Jon

I thought it enabled him to reach two par 5's easily - I don't know whether the 2nd rewarded a draw 50 years ago.

James B

[A.G._Crockett]

You know what's amazing, A.G.? That over the years I could've grown so fond of you personally and so respectful of your posts despite the fact that you're always so maddeningly logical and condescendingly clear-headed and astute! But just to be a pest, I will point out that there is no use is hinging your argument on the all-else-being-equal cliche -- since "all else" is *never* "equal".... at least not in the real world of non-delusionals...

Pete,
You made me smile on a tough morning; thank you!

And of course you're right; all things are NEVER equal.  But I'm always amused by folks who believe that an athlete could possibly benefit by NOT training and conditioning more carefully.  Same goes for nutrition, for coaching, for technology, and so on.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I'm heading to the Y for 30 minutes on the elliptical, following by 30 minutes of weights, followed by 30 minutes of stretching.  I am what I am...

[A.G._Crockett]

1. Going from the instance to the generalization is a logical fallacy of the first magnitude, so comparing Woods to Nicklaus or Player or anybody else is probably NOT going to be instructive.
...

The problem is that we don't have access to all the data necessary to give the generalization. Do you?
Bob Charles trained hard like Gary Player, and had great longevity. I suspect that these instances might hold up in a generalized study.

Garland,
I don't think we disagree on this, do we?  Like you, I think that we could generalize that in ANY sport, athletes that train correctly have greater longevity not only than they would otherwise, but than athletes who do NOT train correctly.

What bothers me is when people point to Tiger Woods and say that his workouts have caused his physical problems, when it might just as well be the case that he would have "broken down" even earlier without the workouts; we'll never know.  But I do know that back troubles were predicted for him many, many years before they happened because of his golf swing.  It bothers me equally to point to Jack Nicklaus and say that he did NOT work out, therefore...

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm not judging but does Dustin Johnson have the kind of woman behind him that it takes to be successful over three decades? They just don't make em anymore like Arnie and Jack had at home.

That sounds pretty judgemental, considering that you aren't judging...

[V_Halyard]

My 20 something (Tiger generation) kids summed it up for me. They love tiger and are actually very sad.
They also believe it isn't over but offered me this bit of insight...


"I want to crush the ball but I'm training for golf, not a rendition"


They Love spy novels...  I wish I could come up with stuff that spiffy.

[John Kirk]

I'm not judging but does Dustin Johnson have the kind of woman behind him that it takes to be successful over three decades? They just don't make em anymore like Arnie and Jack had at home.

Hard to tell.  Dustin Johnson will never be as big a star as Arnie or Jack.  Paulina's father Wayne Gretzky certainly introduces a role model of greatness into his life.  He seems to be playing better now that his life has settled down.  It's nice.

[Sean_A]

But I'm always amused by folks who believe that an athlete could possibly benefit by NOT training and conditioning more carefully.  Same goes for nutrition, for coaching, for technology, and so on.

Bit of a stretch (get it!) here.  I don't think many people serious about professional sport would advocate the above. The issues are what type of training and how much. Lord knows I don't have the answers, but I do suspect one doesn't need to be built like a linebacker to be successful at golf.   

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Kyle Harris

interesting comments about Jack Nicklaus and his hip problems.

IIRC (from 'Golf My Way' I think) Jack had burser issues with his hip in the 1960's.
In 1967 (I think) it had flared up as bursitis, and the only way Jack could play was to hit a draw rather than his customary fade.
He won the Master's in 1967 hitting a draw, which he found of great use on #13 and another hole (I can't recall which one).

I don't have the book so I can't check my memory here.

James B

Jack may well have had bursitis in 1967, and WAS often hitting a hook in that Masters-but it was a duck hook, and he missed the cut as two time defending Champion. Gay Brewer won in '67, avenging a playoff loss to Nicklaus the year before.


Perhaps there's another year you're thinking of.
Jack had the ability to draw the ball at will (though not his preferred shot) and used it effectively at Augusta on 2, 5, 9,10, 13, 14-often with fairway woods on 10 and 14

[James Bennett]

jeffwarne

my bad for 1967 - apologies to the whirlybird (Gay Brewer).

Jack won when he had bursitis.  He had to play right to left. Perhaps it was 1965 or 1966.

James B

[Mike_Young]

The main culprits hindering longevity in golf are trying to hit the longball and divots.  If a good athlete plays within his natural ability and has a swing that does not impact the ground as much then he can play for a long time.  Examples being Langer and Watson.  BUT TD said "if they train as world class athletes"....and that means more mass than is natural in most cases...the joints in the back and knees can't stand up to the strength of those muscles when they are put in those torques positions and repeating such will fail...first Tiger and now Jason Day"fastest hips in golf"....   

[Tom_Doak]

The main culprits hindering longevity in golf are trying to hit the longball and divots.  If a good athlete plays within his natural ability and has a swing that does not impact the ground as much then he can play for a long time.  Examples being Langer and Watson.  BUT TD said "if they train as world class athletes"....and that means more mass than is natural in most cases...the joints in the back and knees can't stand up to the strength of those muscles when they are put in those torques positions and repeating such will fail...first Tiger and now Jason Day"fastest hips in golf"....

Mike:  Thank you for coming back to the point of my post.


Do you really think a player of the same type as Langer or Watson is going to be competitive in 2030, the way golf has been going?  It seems to me that the more athletic the golfers have gotten, the more the courses are designed and set up to favor athletic golfers; and the more the golfers feel the pressure to become athletic.


Is Rory more like Tiger or Langer?

[JMEvensky]

Will there be a Senior Tour in 20 years?

[BCowan]

The main culprits hindering longevity in golf are trying to hit the longball and divots.  If a good athlete plays within his natural ability and has a swing that does not impact the ground as much then he can play for a long time.  Examples being Langer and Watson.  BUT TD said "if they train as world class athletes"....and that means more mass than is natural in most cases...the joints in the back and knees can't stand up to the strength of those muscles when they are put in those torques positions and repeating such will fail...first Tiger and now Jason Day"fastest hips in golf"....

Mike:  Thank you for coming back to the point of my post.


Do you really think a player of the same type as Langer or Watson is going to be competitive in 2030, the way golf has been going?  It seems to me that the more athletic the golfers have gotten, the more the courses are designed and set up to favor athletic golfers; and the more the golfers feel the pressure to become athletic.


Is Rory more like Tiger or Langer?

Rory will be more like Langer assuming he doesn't play soccer with friends in the summer and injure himself that way  .  I know that never gets brought up, but lifting does.  Agassi's career was extended through working out hard. 

What gets overlooked is doing stupid things like playing soccer during Major Golf Season, the other is Swing coach.  Overtorquing.
Rory has more freedom and hip turn I say he is more Langer.  Nerves and the mind will determine his length assuming he doesn't continue to play soccer in season.   

[JESII]

There will always be room for a player that controls their ball and is determined not to lose.


What I would like to see is a Luke Donald get to #1 in the world and then NOT decide they need to figure out how to hit the ball further...


True, the cards are stacked against them because chicks dig the long ball...and TV golf is, well, TV golf.

[John Kirk]

The main culprits hindering longevity in golf are trying to hit the longball and divots.  If a good athlete plays within his natural ability and has a swing that does not impact the ground as much then he can play for a long time.  Examples being Langer and Watson.  BUT TD said "if they train as world class athletes"....and that means more mass than is natural in most cases...the joints in the back and knees can't stand up to the strength of those muscles when they are put in those torques positions and repeating such will fail...first Tiger and now Jason Day"fastest hips in golf"....

Mike:  Thank you for coming back to the point of my post.

Do you really think a player of the same type as Langer or Watson is going to be competitive in 2030, the way golf has been going?  It seems to me that the more athletic the golfers have gotten, the more the courses are designed and set up to favor athletic golfers; and the more the golfers feel the pressure to become athletic.

Is Rory more like Tiger or Langer?

It seems to me stronger is always better for golf.  It seems to me players have to do strength training in order to compete.  Maybe I'm wrong about that.  I'm quite sure the best golfers, regardless of how far they hit it, spend a great deal of time practicing their short game.  They are all rather brilliant around the greens.

How do you feel the courses are set up to favor the long hitter?  The only way I can imagine they can favor a certain length of player is to have carry bunkers at longer distances from the tee.  I'd like to see evidence that courses 30 years ago were indeed set up so that it was easier for a medium length player to compete.

This year Jim Furyk is 213th out of 214 golfers in driving distance.  Zach Johnson is another amazing player.  Both won a tournament in 2015.  He is ranked 135th in driving.  Kevin Kisner is 147th; he won last year.

Curiously, the one course that most people agree favored the long ball hitter was Augusta National, and as the course has been modified over the past 10 years, it appears to only favor left handed power players, as Mickelson and Bubba Watson have won 5 Masters since 2005.

Rory is more like Tiger.

To me, the big trend is the average age of the tournament winners this year.

</babble>

[Carl Rogers]

I have to look up some Driving Stats back in 1986 to determine where JN was ranked.  I found a lot of stats about everyone else, but not JN.  Some thing tells me that he was barely more than the average Tour Pro back in 86.

[JESII]

Likely didn't hit the minimum number of rounds/drives.

[Jason Topp]

I have to look up some Driving Stats back in 1986 to determine where JN was ranked.  I found a lot of stats about everyone else, but not JN.  Some thing tells me that he was barely more than the average Tour Pro back in 86.

In '85 he was ranked 47th at 265.4 - about 5 yards longer than average and 14 short of the leader. Kyle Stanley holds that position in 2017 at  an average drive of 298.5, just under 6 yards longer than average and 17 short of the leader. 

[Mike_Young]

The main culprits hindering longevity in golf are trying to hit the longball and divots.  If a good athlete plays within his natural ability and has a swing that does not impact the ground as much then he can play for a long time.  Examples being Langer and Watson.  BUT TD said "if they train as world class athletes"....and that means more mass than is natural in most cases...the joints in the back and knees can't stand up to the strength of those muscles when they are put in those torques positions and repeating such will fail...first Tiger and now Jason Day"fastest hips in golf"....

Mike:  Thank you for coming back to the point of my post.


Do you really think a player of the same type as Langer or Watson is going to be competitive in 2030, the way golf has been going?  It seems to me that the more athletic the golfers have gotten, the more the courses are designed and set up to favor athletic golfers; and the more the golfers feel the pressure to become athletic.


Is Rory more like Tiger or Langer?

I think there are athletes out there who will be there for the long haul.  I would envision them as lanky and more into streching than creating muscle mass.  A Jordan Speith, DJ, Kirk, Brown, are all very good athletes that don't quite get that majic swingspeed number which allows the ball to exponentiate.  When the difference in length was only 25 yards amongst players it was a different deal than when it could be 75 yards as today.  Ollie Sneiderjhans may be the best up and coming star with longevity onhis side...

[Jim Nugent]

Curiously, the one course that most people agree favored the long ball hitter was Augusta National, and as the course has been modified over the past 10 years, it appears to only favor left handed power players, as Mickelson and Bubba Watson have won 5 Masters since 2005.

A short-hitting (relatively) right-handed player has dominated the Masters the last 3 years. 

[Garland Bayley]

The main culprits hindering longevity in golf are trying to hit the longball and divots.  If a good athlete plays within his natural ability and has a swing that does not impact the ground as much then he can play for a long time.  Examples being Langer and Watson.  BUT TD said "if they train as world class athletes"....and that means more mass than is natural in most cases...the joints in the back and knees can't stand up to the strength of those muscles when they are put in those torques positions and repeating such will fail...first Tiger and now Jason Day"fastest hips in golf"....

Do you need the muscle mass to hit the ball long? I don't think so. My recollection is that Jamie Sadlowski was not a muscled long drive champion. That skinny Howell character was near the top of driving distance when he came on tour.
I also recall Tiger's teammates at Stanford marveling at his ability to sweep the ball without a hint of divot.

It just seems to me in my non-expert knowledge that training for speed is not training for muscle mass.