Golfers as Athletes

[Tom_Doak]

One of the fellows I played golf with in Hong Kong today was a retired rugby player.  At lunch afterward he said something so simple about the longevity of modern players that I thought it worth repeating -- that as golfers train more and more like world-class athletes, it's inevitable that their careers will become shorter in the new era.


Think about it.  If Tiger Woods were a basketball player, or a sprinter, would we be surprised that his career has faded fast just before age 40?  Of course not.  We're only surprised in golf because we remember the era where Jack Nicklaus could compete for longer. 


But Jack didn't use up his body training every day to try and keep up with guys who were swinging as hard as they could.  The more competitive a sport golf becomes, and the more it attracts real athletes, the more they'll have to push themselves and the more likely their careers will be shortened ... by injury, or just being overtaken by younger and stronger athletes.  That's how sports works.  We'd better get used to it.

[MCirba]

Tom,

I think in the case of Tiger this is even more pronounced due to the fact that he's essentially been training daily to be a competitive golfer since about the age of three.   

While I'm no doctor, things like repetitive stress injuries and strains to joints and ligaments tend to exaggerate in those who have been doing the same things for longer periods, as obvious as that sounds.   While his age may be 40, his golfing age is probably closer to 50.

I'm not sure he can tone it back either, which seems his only hope, much like the fastball pitcher who learns to throw "junk" to extend his career.   In golf terms, that means becoming a more accurate, shorter version of himself who then uses cagey experience to strategically outthink his competitors.   

[BCowan]

I disagree with this notion completely.  Phil Michelson almost won thee Open last summer.  Bernard Langer, Fred Funk, and many others extended their careers due to working out.  Rugby and other physical sports have more recovery time issues for older athletes.   

  Tiger Woods never used to listen to Dr's.  His training could be questioned very much so.  He didn't need anymore strength then he obtained at Stanford.  I don't like how he limited his hip turn with Butch and over torqued his upper body IMO, but he got great results and that is what the uniformed care about, results. 

[Peter Pallotta]

These new and intense training methods are fundamentally flawed. They build up more/different muscles than the body is meant to carry and put more stresses on the joints than they were meant to bear. The result is young baseball players blowing out their knees running to first base and 22 year old basketball players twisting the ankles on a jump shot. A healthy, active young person will have a body that can do all it's called to do and not break down. JN got plenty enough club head speed, as did Hogan and Jones before him - the latter on a diet of bourbon and cigarettes. Modern golfers and athletes are being trained (and treated) like thoroughbreds, and are breaking down accordingly. As a comedian once noted: Jim Brown played 9 years in the NFL and never missed a game -- and he played when there were only a few black guys around, so you know he had hardly anyone blocking for him. Now 40 years later you got guys getting hurt in *practice*.  The bodies of all modern golfers are being pampered and stressed out at the same time, and so are developing in a wholly unnatural way. My father, and millions of others like him, swung a 20 pound sledgehammer all day when he wasn't carrying 60 pound stones over broken ground or standing below ground in an eight-foot deep trench digging out dirt around foundations and twisting the shovel up and around his body a thousand times a day -- 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year, and in my dad's case from when he was 17 years old until he was 67. Nothing ever got twisted or worn out or broken down. If young men are getting injured *playing golf*, there is something profoundly wrong with the way they are training.
Peter   

[John Kavanaugh]

If children aren't as rugged as they use to be what makes you think adults are?

[Niall C]

Tom


I don't think it was Tiger's age at the time of his demise but the abruptness that was so surprising.


Niall

[Carl Nichols]

I suspect this is a lot more complicated than the opinions that have been given already (and that very few people on here, including me, are competent to really know what the answer is).  On the one hand, it does seem intuitive that the very-early-age training, and seeming need for enhanced strength/conditioning, could lead to more injuries and/or shorter careers.  (Tiger would be the anecdotal evidence here.)  On the other hand, it also seems intuitive that better diets/conditioning/stretching could lead to fewer injuries and/or longer careers.  (Think Tom Brady). 

[jeffwarne]

The defense presents Bernhard Langer as its first witness

[John Kavanaugh]

The defense presents Bernhard Langer as its first witness

Bernhard is winning on the old man tour. How does that count?

[BCowan]

The defense presents Bernhard Langer as its first witness

Bernhard is winning on the old man tour. How does that count?

Jkava,

    Norman nearly won thee Open in his late 50's.  He could still probably win if he had a lobotomy

[BCrosby]

I tend to think that Tiger's health issues are unique to Tiger. 


Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

All these old guys you are using as evidence did not grow up under the threat of dying by eating a peanut. My contention is that we are now raising weak children that will become weak adults. It seems like common sense. Do any of you really believe any of these millennial superstars are going to be around in 20 years? This is simply a cause of societal evolution evident in every occupation, athletic or not.

[Thomas Dai]

The defense presents Bernhard Langer as its first witness

Bernhard is winning on the old man tour. How does that count?

BL has I believe said that if it wasn't for the tour physios and the suppleness etc exercises he's done with them that his main tour career would have been over by his late 30's.
atb

[Steve Lang]

Great subject as a lot of folks start to think of getting out to play in fading winter weather or working out in prep for the new golf season.


So one shouldn't be going to Titleist Performance Institute to train?


Tacking off of John K's thoughts, will there be a star studded Sr tour in the future who will still be competitive at 50 of today's name players?  It also seems to me that many athletes that continue on well beyond average length careers were multi-sport types in their youth... how many teen athletes today can get that coveted college ride if they don't concentrate on one sport, facing potentially burning out either physically or mentally or both?    Jack N was active in many sports, Hale Irwin played college football among other things.


I think Gary Player would like to present an amicus brief to the court??

[Randy Thompson]

 [font=]I think it depends on the individual and certainly their training methods but even more so their style in relation to the swing. Twenty years in the past. it was pretty evident to most, that Tiger`s rip it swing was going to catch up with him and most feared the knee. Players that have an effortless swing shouldn`t be effected by increased training. In tennis, they said the same about Nadal ten years ago. He will never make it to Feder`s age with his style of play. He plays with so much passion and aggression that his body seems to be getting abused.[/font]

[JMEvensky]

I tend to think that Tiger's health issues are unique to Tiger. 


Bob

Agreed--but you have to wonder how many of the current young players were influenced by him,and what physical problems their futures will hold. I also wonder how many (foolishly) attribute TW's success to his workout regimen.

[Jonathan Mallard]

Let's all pretend that Tom Watson hit a 9 Iron into the 72nd hole at Turnberry in 2009.


Please!

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's all pretend that Tom Watson hit a 9 Iron into the 72nd hole at Turnberry in 2009.


Please!

When he was 40 he would have.

[John Kirk]

I think Tom's general premise is true.  In the specific case of Tiger Woods, it seems Tiger wore his body out with too much high impact training, like running on a heavily muscled physique.  But I am inclined to believe his current problems are mostly back related, and seem coincidental to his decision to have spinal surgery twice.  I remain unconvinced that spinal surgery, except in the most severe and straightforward of cases, is a worthwhile risk to take.

It seems clear that the average age of PGA Tour winners has fallen recently.  I don;t know how that jibes with the concept that young people are weaker.  Young golfers play and train intensely at a much earlier age.  I wonder if the stats show that golfers develop psychological barriers as they age, and now 30-35 year olds are mentally inferior to the relatively uncluttered mind of a 23 year old.

I believe golfers should last longer and play better with the proper fitness regime.  As golf fitness evolves, I'll guess that flexibility will generally be favored over muscle mass.  And stay away from basketball and running on the pavement!

[Pat Burke]

tim Herron on working out


"Nobody ever missed a tournament because they strained or pulled their fat."




Like anything else, there is no one answer.  Jack was brilliant at pacing his career with scheduling
Palmer played every day with few big injuries, and let say, a less than fluid motion.


Genetics, luck, AND managing yourself and your swing add to longevity.


Hell, after 12 years away due to destroying my wrist and quitting in 2001.  I was surprisingly pain and ache free.  Those years of not beating my body up saved huge amounts of wear and (those that know me, know it was the gym).
It was very easy for me to practice and play a lot.
And then I got rear ended in a fucking golf cart that malfunctioned!!
Now I can't loop my belt through the back half of my pants without help because my shoulder is wrecked! 


Some guys and girls ARE OVERtraining in my opinion.  Langer works hard and is a great example of doing it very well, keeping his athletic motion the priority.  He also did it well when he was younger.

[Joe Bausch]

To quote the great Kenny Mayne:  "They are seniors.  But active seniors".

[Peter Pallotta]

As Tom Paul was fond of saying, golf is almost unique among games/sports in that the opponents are not vying for the (same) ball. In golf it doesn't matter if everyone else is built like a linebacker and can hit the ball a mile, as long as you can work your *own* golf ball around in fewer strokes.  Who ever worked the ball better than 5 foot 9 inch Ben Hogan, on wrecked legs and a 3 pack a day habit? If he was playing today with modern equipment fully optimized, does anyone really believe he wouldn't meaningfully compete against these (apparently) remarkable athletes who have been training (wrongly in my opinion) since they were 5 years old?  In my view this modern training approach is a *belief system*, no more, no less -- based a bit perhaps on science, so called, but even more to do with willing and hoping and guessing and posturing and with fulfilling other needs (conscious and unconscious) that are mostly independent of the game's demands (e.g. six pack abs sell more energy drinks than a beer gut, especially if you're wearing a golf shirt that's two sizes too small). As a belief system, it's probably more like astrology than it is even, say, capitalism.  The way most of these young golfers are behaving, it's as if they really believe that astrology and horoscopes and the trickle down theory are "true"....
Peter 

[Shane Wright]

I believe that the money will shorten careers more than overtraining.  At a certain amount of money, a typical young man is going to lose interest.  Especially one that has essentially lived a robotic life training 7-12 hours a day in a non-team sport (golf).  Many of these youngsters never got to be youngsters.  And when you are sitting on 10-20+mil, at some point, pure logic sets in and you ask yourself about purpose.  Luke Donald is a perfect example.  He has a beautiful family and life.  You only get to spend it with them once. 


Shane

[BCowan]

As the ''great one'' said when asked about today's talent, conditioning, on ice IQ.  He said today's product is much superior to his generation. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Longer only won 3 events on the PGA Tour. He paced himself.