Worst of the Masters

[ian]

Forrest,

I find it easier to debate courses that are help up as great and diagree with that pronouncement. I have openly questioned Pebble Beach (still great, but the best?)and championed Pinehurst #2.

I think one of the issues we all have is experience (except may be Tom D). I have visited Crystal Downs and Cypress Point to see Mackenzie, but many other works are low on my must see list. I have no intention to travel specifically to see any more American work. There may or may not be a dog out there, but it is not in the cards for me to find out. I want to see more Flynn and Raynor before I start to travel specificly to see another Mackenzie. So many courses, so little time.

As I stated I can list the courses I like least about Thompson because I have seen close to 50. I have seen 3 Mackenzies, NO Raynor, 20 Ross's, only 5 Tillinghaust. Thompson would be the only architect that I would feel experienced enough to comment on. Its Oakdale, nice property, does not inspire me anywhere but one par 3.

Is a better angle, what was the course you specifically went to see that disappointed you.

[Forrest Richardson]

Almost all Ross work. But I've seen little of it in total.

Pebble, of course, was not created by a "master", so I'm not sure we can include it. I agree, it is a course made by its site and some remarkable decisions. Whether these decisions were luck or simply driven by the land plan, I cannot say. I did speak to Jack Neville many years ago by Phone. He was a humble man who gave tremendous credit to the site and had the attitude of "how could we have gone wrong..." I'd say that somewhat confirms that there was not a lot of magic in the design of Pebble beyond the perspective of some serious golfers and the great Pacific coastline.

[Jason Mandel]

Wayne,

thanks for the info.

i had a sneaking suspicion that plymouth was not all flynn, although flynns name has been so sexy to use around philly these days that they of course put it on their scorecard.

i assume flynn built the back 9, and that is interesting to me because i always though that after hole 10, the course does get quite interesting.  the a few of the holes on the front 9 are not golf, it is hit it and pray that it stays out of the trees.  when i mentioned to one of my good friends who is a member there, that the course really needs to think about a tree clearing program.  not only because of the playability factor but also for turf.  currently 7 holes are closed and all of the greens are temporary because of problems they are having.

as for green valley, i mentioned this and then sort of regretted it after i said it.  i am very familiar with the course, as i live 30 seconds from it .  i did not know the marble hall story, but makes sense as there are other quarry near there.  as for the course, i know there have been many changes and such and some of the holes are interesting.  from what i know about the club, i imagine the amount of members that are truly interested in doing a full restoration.  i remember when the club built the new club house 10 years ago and that seemed to more important to most of the members.

what is really kind of odd is that green valley is one of the 5 or 6 predominately jewish clubs in the area, and like i said i live 30 seconds from the place, but for some reason my dad joined white manor, which has always been a good 25 minute drive!  his response was always that he could not play green valley every day, too many holes felt like they were the same.

another problem with the place that they really can not do much about is location!  they are located in between two of the busiest roads in the area, germantown and ridge pikes.  one can not help but notice the noise and commotion of the cars nearby.  

intersting what you say about the course designed to introduce golfers to the game, what an introduction they get at #10, one of the best par threes in the area.  i also really like the 1st par 3 on the course, i think number 4?  

but alas, i still believe that you cant compare these courses to places like RG, lancaster, lehigh, philly country, manny's, etc.  

jason