Is the tilted green dying? Should it be saved?

[Jason Topp]

My favorite greens tend to be tilted, usually (though not necessarily) towards a front corner.  Such greens impact the tee shot, because it is easier to hit up the slope of the green.  They impact the 2nd shot because one has to choose between risking an awkward putt from above the hole or safely hitting below the hole.  Such greens even impose tactical decisions on putts, because a sideslope 5 foot putt can be holed on a variety of lines, with a high soft line best for making sure the next putt goes in and a lower line probably more effective for actually holing the first putt.  Throw in a couple of spines on the green to make sure the player is paying attention and a simple design yields very interesting golf.

Such greens carry the added advantage of being very easy for the player to understand, yet very interesting to try and attack. 

The drawback to such greens is that they need to be kept at appropriate speeds.  I think such greens retain much of their interest at lower speeds but a dry windy day can quickly turn a terrific green into a clown show (see the 7th at Shinnecock in the US Open).    Speeds demanded by players at private clubs pretty much make such a design impractical for a new course and very difficult to maintain at an existing club. 

I do not think any educational program is likely to eliminate the average club member's desire for faster greens. 

Is there a way to design a green that maintains the same type of interest without the tilt?  Should we just allow such greens to fade away? 

[John Kavanaugh]

A new template...the such green. Thanks!

[BCowan]

Jason,

  Are you an Alison fan? 

Meadowbrook has 3% slope in many of the greens.  There goal is to have greens at 10 and call them Meadowbrook speed.  It will be interesting to see how that goes.  It's getting out of control at privates.  A friend of mine is an Asst Pro at another club and they stimp the greens in AM and PM each day.   

[Ian Andrew]

Meadowbrook has 3% slope in many of the greens.  There goal is to have greens at 10 and call them Meadowbrook speed.  It will be interesting to see how that goes.

I did the same at Islington, Laval-sur-le-lac (Blue) and Maple Downs (during green rebuilding projects)
This addresses winter damage, addresses compaction in low points, reduces the need for lower green heights and delivers "implied" speed. And they make for more interesting greens - in my opinion.


No issues with all going to a lower speed at each - they were educated on why it was done that way up front.

[Jason Topp]

Another thing I like about such greens is that the tilt tends to reflect the surrounding environment and provides an advantage to the player that recognizes the surrounding environment and takes it into account.  In some cases it smacks you in the face, like at Northland (Ross) or Hyperion Field Club (Bendelow).  In other cases it is more subtle, such as the adage of everything breaking to Indio in the Palm Springs area. 

[Tom Bagley]

Jason,

  Are you an Alison fan? 

Meadowbrook has 3% slope in many of the greens.  There goal is to have greens at 10 and call them Meadowbrook speed.  It will be interesting to see how that goes.  It's getting out of control at privates.  A friend of mine is an Asst Pro at another club and they stimp the greens in AM and PM each day.   

I love this idea - "Meadowbrook speed!"  Why cite a stimpmeter number?  Every course should embrace this concept and have their greens played at the speed that produces the best and most interesting golf - for their particular golf course.

[Blake Conant]

Tilted greens are cool and more should be built.  Garden City is a good example.  The pitch in the green dictates the strategy for several holes. 

[Ira Fishman]

The tilted back to front green is a great design feature that should never go away.  It is even better with a false front on a green that plays uphill.  Although it may ruin my score, I never am anything but bemused when I putt/chip off the green or hit a shot too short that rolls back down the fairway.  Having said that, green speed does matter.  On the Ross Courses where I have seen both tilt and false fronts and have had the privilege to play, the Broadmoor, Mid Pines, and Pine Needles have had reasonable speeds.  At Hope Valley, the speed can be a bit aggressive, but I do not get the sense that it is from Member pressure.  At the end of the day, if the Members want speedy greens, that is their choice.  But no way should the tilt be eliminated just because at some courses the Members want overly quick greens.

[MClutterbuck]

You can still have tilted greens with fast speeds, right? Just make them somewhat less tilted.


With respect to the speed of the greens, in my home club, temperate weather, year round golf, bent grass, we have decided to allow health of the grass to dictate speed and we do not measure. In general, we get higher speeds in the Fall and Spring, allowing for a higher HOC, less rolling and lower speeds in the summer. It is a matter of scheduling important club championships and any national championships accordingly.


It might be different when you have a shorter season, but I question a specific green speed target year round, whether higher or lower. It should be allowed to vary with the ideal agronomic neeeds of the green.

[jeffwarne]

You can still have tilted greens with fast speeds, right? Just make them somewhat less tilted.

The death of the thread.
and it was going so well.....


If greens stimp at 20(we used to think 12 was ridiculous-so why not 20?) how much tilt exactly are talking about? none as far as deflection of pitches of approaches.(just a shit ton of run once it's running)


No tilt =reduced strategy and reduced interest.
People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green .

[Kevin_D]

My club, Wykagyl, has quite a few greens that would qualify at "tilted".


Most notable is #7, which Ran describes in his recent profile:
http://golfclubatlas.com/wykagyl-country-club-page-ii/


My view is that variety is a good thing. There is a place for greens with heavy undulations and internal contours, and there is a place for greens where difficulty and strategy are dictated by pitch and cant.


For #7, the tilt of the green definitely makes you consider your club selection carefully. Normally, landing your tee shot above the hole will let it roll down to a good position. But being above the hole or left off the green is not a good spot (though magical recoveries are certainly possible through an ever so delicate flop). Missing the green short right provides a better chance to make par.


The first time you play it, the hole can seem "unfair" if not played properly, but once you understand the dynamic of the green, you simply play it accordingly.


Personally, I think it provides a unique challenge, and makes you think a bit more than you would otherwise for a 170 yarder.

[George Pazin]

Hope they're not dead, too many amazing courses have them.


Don't make them "less so" in pursuit of uniform high speed. Make the speed "less so".

[MClutterbuck]

You can still have tilted greens with fast speeds, right? Just make them somewhat less tilted.

The death of the thread.
and it was going so well.....


If greens stimp at 20(we used to think 12 was ridiculous-so why not 20?) how much tilt exactly are talking about? none as far as deflection of pitches of approaches.(just a shit ton of run once it's running)


No tilt =reduced strategy and reduced interest.
People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green .

Well, I am not advocating for faster greens, but rather advocating for architects not to abandon tilted greens even if owners/members want faster greens. I understand the deflection point.


I was also trying to go against the notion of measuring green speeds but rather have HOC and rolling schedules that allow for healthier and more sustainable greens, wich will surely result in different speeds at different times of year.

[BCowan]

I was also trying to go against the notion of measuring green speeds but rather have HOC and rolling schedules that allow for healthier and more sustainable greens, wich will surely result in different speeds at different times of year.

Marcos,

    The original point of measuring greens with a stimp measure was to try to get all 18 greens running the same speed.  It's now turned into a measuring contest.  The New grasses that are 99+% pure can be cut very low year round and have been developed in the US.  Jeff and I do NOT want boring flat greens.  At 3%, you can't go faster then 10 was the point or one will be putting off greens.  I'm all for rolling greens and raising HOC and having bold contours, spines, and great tilt.  In the US due to agronomic advances, restraint is hard. 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Considering the anticipated numbers of rounds and the wide demographic of golfers at the club, I based most of the green designs at The Derrick Club in Edmonton, AB on tilt. With that, I think we were able to create interest and present strategy to low handicap golfers while still providing an adequate number of pin positions, and most importantly ensuring a majority of golfers can simply enjoy the course.

[Jud_T]

Yes they're worth saving but it ain't gonna happen when the best ones get silly north of 10 and most members shart themselves if the greens aren't running at 11+.  Kind of like Trump and civil discourse; Pandora's Box is open and there's no shoving it all back in. 

[Bill_McBride]

What is the % tilt that's acceptable today?   The front half of Pasatiempo #8 is 6%.  No pins there.  With greens stumping at 10, is 1% slope the maximum in pinning areas?


It would be great to see members accept 8-9 stimps.   There would be so many more opportunities to put more tilt in the greens, and much more fun golf. 

[David Harshbarger]

As an Emmett fan, I love the tilted green. 


There are so many ways to make interest out of tilt:


Tilt the green front to back.
Tilt the green against the land flow.
Tilt the green with the land flow.
Add tilt to tiers
Add tilt to splines


All add interest specifically in differentiating one hole from the previous hole, where the lesson learned needs to be unlearned, if you are to be successful.

[Matthew Essig]

What is the % tilt that's acceptable today?   The front half of Pasatiempo #8 is 6%.  No pins there.  With greens stumping at 10, is 1% slope the maximum in pinning areas?


It would be great to see members accept 8-9 stimps.   There would be so many more opportunities to put more tilt in the greens, and much more fun golf.

Feet Rolled on downhill putts:
Stimp 6: 1* = 6.71; 2* = 7.62; 3* = 8.78; 4* = 10.5; 5* = 12.8; 6* = 16.4
Stimp 8.5: 1* = 9.98; 2* = 12.1; 3* = 15.4; 4* = 22.1; 5* = 33.9; 6* = 81.9
Stimp 11: 1* = 13.8; 2* = 18.2; 3* = 26.6; 4* = 51.8; 5* = 492; 6* = infinity
Stimp 12.5: 1* = 16; 2* = 22.3; 3* = 36.4; 4* = 109; 5* = infinity; 6* = infinity


* = degrees
each degree is approximately 1.75% in gradient.

[Greg Chambers]

What is the % tilt that's acceptable today?   The front half of Pasatiempo #8 is 6%.  No pins there.  With greens stumping at 10, is 1% slope the maximum in pinning areas?


It would be great to see members accept 8-9 stimps.   There would be so many more opportunities to put more tilt in the greens, and much more fun golf.

At 10' 2.5% is about the max

[Tom_Doak]

What is the % tilt that's acceptable today?   The front half of Pasatiempo #8 is 6%.  No pins there.  With greens stumping at 10, is 1% slope the maximum in pinning areas?


It would be great to see members accept 8-9 stimps.   There would be so many more opportunities to put more tilt in the greens, and much more fun golf.

At 10' 2.5% is about the max

No, 2.5% is not the maximum slope that can be used for a hole location at 10' on the Stimpmeter, unless your criteria is that you should be able to easily roll the ball dead from above the hole.  If 2.5% were the max, there would be greens on many classic championship courses where they didn't have enough hole locations for an event. 


Garden City Golf Club, where I consult, has several tilted greens where pretty much the entire putting surface is between 3 and 5 percent.  As Matthew's post shows -- and it exaggerates the problem, because we measure slope in % and not degrees -- greens above 3.5% [2 degrees] become very fast as an effective speed when putting downhill, and encourage you to leave your ball below the hole.


The USGA and the Tour WILL keep their hole locations to no more than 2.5% [actually the Tour goes down to 2.25%] if they have several spots on a green that qualify, but they don't always have that option.  I have trouble believing that all the hole locations at Oakmont, say, were under 2.5% for any of the events held there.  And remember, most weeks, the greens for televised tournaments are at speeds well in excess of 10' on the Stimpmeter, too.


I'm just tired of seeing the 2.5% figure bandied about like it's a black and white law.  It's a milquetoast rule of thumb, designed to avoid any controversy.  Clubs that are encouraged to change their greens for this reason are being fed a pack of lies.

[Mike Hendren]

Was the tilt intended to brake an incoming ball before technology increased ball spin?

[Bill_McBride]

The tilted back to front green is a great design feature that should never go away.  It is even better with a false front on a green that plays uphill.  Although it may ruin my score, I never am anything but bemused when I putt/chip off the green or hit a shot too short that rolls back down the fairway.  Having said that, green speed does matter.  On the Ross Courses where I have seen both tilt and false fronts and have had the privilege to play, the Broadmoor, Mid Pines, and Pine Needles have had reasonable speeds.  At Hope Valley, the speed can be a bit aggressive, but I do not get the sense that it is from Member pressure.  At the end of the day, if the Members want speedy greens, that is their choice.  But no way should the tilt be eliminated just because at some courses the Members want overly quick greens.

Broadmoor in Colorado Springs not only has tilt but also the high mountain behind.  Everything fell away from the sound of the carillon, even if it appeared to break the other way.  Maybe he most confusing greens I've ever played.

[Jason Topp]

Was the tilt intended to brake an incoming ball before technology increased ball spin?

Others can chime in but I suspect a big reason early greens in the US tilted was for the purpose of drainage. 

[Joe Hancock]

Was the tilt intended to brake an incoming ball before technology increased ball spin?

Others can chime in but I suspect a big reason early greens in the US tilted was for the purpose of drainage.

But that wouldn't explain why the the tendency was to tilt the green towards the line of play, vs. away from it.


To your point though, the tilt did provide surface drainage.