The argument for a larger hole

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff - how do you figure that jives with Paul Runyan running away with the event they played with large cups in the 40's?  Too small a sample size?  I personally am very skeptical of Broadies statistics...

Clearly Broadies statistics are wrong. If you make the cup large enough everyone makes putts and the gap between percentage made narrows, but if you extend the range you are counting to an appropriate distance off the green, I believe the percentage would be re-established.

I believe it was Gene Sarazen that wanted the larger cups a long time ago, and they tested it. The finding was that everyone made longer putts, but it didn't change the percentage difference between good putters and bad putters.

[Garland Bayley]

Putting is the easiest part of the game for the beginner. You want to make the game easier for the beginner. Make the clubs shorter, and the courses shorter.
My right-handed brother, who does not play golf can really nail the ball with his grandson's (age 6) left-handed clubs.
IMNSHO larger holes is a stupid idea.

Garland,

I believe Jerry's point and the idea behind 8" holes is not to make the game easier for the beginner, but to allow entry level courses, like munis, to continue to provide a cheap golf entry point. The reality is that a golfer will accept, what many here may call, an inferior putting surface with 8" holes that costs less to build, less to maintain and requires far less water.

It takes less money to make 8" holes than 4 1/4" holes?

[Garland Bayley]

I can absolutely see it working. Wintertime greens here in Philadelphia generally stink...8' cups sure would bring back a balance. Courses with much lower maintenance budgets could target that level of quality year round. With interesting undulations, putting is still interesting.


FWIW, I play in an 8' cup scramble every year and you would be shocked at the putts you can miss...

I would be shocked if you missed any 8 foot cups. I would be shocked that with your skills you ever had to do an up and down, because they would all be up and in.

[Mark Pavy]

Putting is the easiest part of the game for the beginner. You want to make the game easier for the beginner. Make the clubs shorter, and the courses shorter.
My right-handed brother, who does not play golf can really nail the ball with his grandson's (age 6) left-handed clubs.
IMNSHO larger holes is a stupid idea.

Garland,

I believe Jerry's point and the idea behind 8" holes is not to make the game easier for the beginner, but to allow entry level courses, like munis, to continue to provide a cheap golf entry point. The reality is that a golfer will accept, what many here may call, an inferior putting surface with 8" holes that costs less to build, less to maintain and requires far less water.

It takes less money to make 8" holes than 4 1/4" holes?

No. It's about what the golfer will deem an acceptable putting surface. The larger hole changes the relativity.

[noonan]

Putting is the easiest part of the game for the beginner. You want to make the game easier for the beginner. Make the clubs shorter, and the courses shorter.
My right-handed brother, who does not play golf can really nail the ball with his grandson's (age 6) left-handed clubs.
IMNSHO larger holes is a stupid idea.

Garland,

I believe Jerry's point and the idea behind 8" holes is not to make the game easier for the beginner, but to allow entry level courses, like munis, to continue to provide a cheap golf entry point. The reality is that a golfer will accept, what many here may call, an inferior putting surface with 8" holes that costs less to build, less to maintain and requires far less water.

Yes....

[noonan]

I can absolutely see it working. Wintertime greens here in Philadelphia generally stink...8' cups sure would bring back a balance. Courses with much lower maintenance budgets could target that level of quality year round. With interesting undulations, putting is still interesting.


FWIW, I play in an 8' cup scramble every year and you would be shocked at the putts you can miss...

I would be shocked if you missed any 8 foot cups. I would be shocked that with your skills you ever had to do an up and down, because they would all be up and in.

Sorry for the typo...was to be 8 inch...lol

[Garland Bayley]

Putting is the easiest part of the game for the beginner. You want to make the game easier for the beginner. Make the clubs shorter, and the courses shorter.
My right-handed brother, who does not play golf can really nail the ball with his grandson's (age 6) left-handed clubs.
IMNSHO larger holes is a stupid idea.

Garland,

I believe Jerry's point and the idea behind 8" holes is not to make the game easier for the beginner, but to allow entry level courses, like munis, to continue to provide a cheap golf entry point. The reality is that a golfer will accept, what many here may call, an inferior putting surface with 8" holes that costs less to build, less to maintain and requires far less water.

It takes less money to make 8" holes than 4 1/4" holes?

No. It's about what the golfer will deem an acceptable putting surface. The larger hole changes the relativity.

I generally play the cheapest courses around. I have not seen any of these mythical unacceptable putting surfaces.
But, then I began my golfing life putting on sand.

[AJ_Foote]

I made this ad a long time ago, and just unexpectedly found it on youtube.


We found an 'actor' who had apparently played a bit of golf.


We spent time painstakingly setting up the shot, getting the angles right, rehearsing the background extras and the timing of the camera move, waiting for the right light etc.


Finally, everything was perfect and we shot the first take.


And he missed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n3uBsXzGgY


Andrew

[Doug Siebert]

Since the penalty for hitting the flagstick when putting on the green will soon be a thing of the past, I guess if the hole was ever so slightly larger the debate of "leave the flag in or out" would be moot with a small increase from 4.25". Anything to speed play, right?

Though personally I'd miss the sound the ball makes when it drops in cup on a short putt.

[Ken Moum]

Reading Broadie's book "Every Shot Counts".  Lots of interesting stuff in there, but one was that statistically, large cups narrow the gap between good and poor putters. 


Obviously, good putters won't like it.

I know Broadie is the real expert on such matters, but I have to wonder how he managed to accurately evaluate the effect of long putts that barely miss the hole.


Imagine, for instance, a putter like Jordan Spieth, who makes a much higher percentage of long putts than anyone I've seen. A lot of his long-range misses have to barely miss.


If they are within 1.5 inches of the cup, they are going in. Poor putters misses are less likely to be that close.


Also, having played to eight-inch cups a bit, I think that you'd never see the real effect without letting the players adapt to big cups. Great putters will soon figure out that their lag putting skills will result in a bunch of one putts

[Niall C]

Larger cups narrow the gap between good and bad putters. Thus, more emphasis is put back on the long game. 

Is it just me that is struggling to see the logic in this statement. Surely if putting was harder there would be more emphasis on the long game as those who could knock it close got an advantage over those that couldn't  whereas if putting is much easier then less need for accuracy (ie. less emphasis), no ?

Niall

[Garland Bayley]

Larger cups narrow the gap between good and bad putters. Thus, more emphasis is put back on the long game. 

Is it just me that is struggling to see the logic in this statement. Surely if putting was harder there would be more emphasis on the long game as those who could knock it close got an advantage over those that couldn't  whereas if putting is much easier then less need for accuracy (ie. less emphasis), no ?

Niall

E.g., Ben Hogan's wife telling him to hit it closer to the hole to solve his putting woes.