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Tim_Weiman

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2017, 12:41:33 AM »

In fairness, Tom, we maniacs on this board are probably not the intended audience for educational purposes on an article like this.


Oh, I understand, the people going to pgatour.com aren't typically going there to read about architecture.  And it's good that they covered a bit.  I just saw the word "insight" and I guess I have a higher standard for that than most people.


Of course, most of the PGA Tour doesn't think of anything as an insight until one of them has said it.


You do, thankfully!
Tim Weiman

JC Jones

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2017, 03:18:15 PM »
I've never met Zac, and I don't have a problem with Zac.


My problem is that I've had a ton of guys [and a couple of women] who have worked for me and been trying to pursue a career in golf architecture for 5, 10, or even 25 years, who get less recognition for it than when a PGA Tour player rolls out of bed and says he'd like to be an architect. 


Hell, Eric Iverson has been working at this for as long as Zac's been alive, and he could go out and build an entire course by himself if he wanted to -- he could even put in the irrigation.  And he knows a fair bit about the 10th at Riviera, too ... it's just that nobody is quoting him about it.


As they say on the PGA Tour, I'm just trying to protect the field.

bump
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Zac Blair

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2017, 05:52:47 PM »
I've never met Zac, and I don't have a problem with Zac.


My problem is that I've had a ton of guys [and a couple of women] who have worked for me and been trying to pursue a career in golf architecture for 5, 10, or even 25 years, who get less recognition for it than when a PGA Tour player rolls out of bed and says he'd like to be an architect. 


Hell, Eric Iverson has been working at this for as long as Zac's been alive, and he could go out and build an entire course by himself if he wanted to -- he could even put in the irrigation.  And he knows a fair bit about the 10th at Riviera, too ... it's just that nobody is quoting him about it.


As they say on the PGA Tour, I'm just trying to protect the field.

bump






I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?


Zb

Ira Fishman

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2017, 08:27:48 PM »
Zac, first, good for you in not taking the well laid bait. Second, regarding Old White, I suggest a contrast between philosophy of a template hole (there are several excellent ones) and a terrific non-template hole--Number 6.


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2017, 08:36:09 PM »


I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?

Zb


How about, how long should a Redan be for a PGA Tour event?

Jim Nugent

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2017, 08:44:57 PM »

I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?

Zb

Along with covering the strategy of the hole, show what a crucial role it's played in golf course history, both in Scotland and in the U.S., where Charles Blair MacDonald first made his famous version at the National Golf Links (which revolutionized golf in the U.S.) and the many times it's been mimicked, including at Old White (again by Macdonald) and even at Augusta National  (the 6th hole there was Mackenzie's version of the redan). 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2017, 08:45:38 PM »
Hi Zac -
my only thought is: don't be afraid to teach.
You'll likely have played more redans, and know more about them, than the vast majority of your readers.
But that's a good thing, or at least it should be.
Don't fall into the trap of the modern magazine writer/article: the trap being "well, our studies show that on-line readers are good for only 300 words/2 and a half minutes - so keep it short and basic".
Maybe readers are stopping in for only 2 and a half minutes precisely because the articles are too short and two basic.
In other words, don't be afraid -- especially in your first draft -- to tell us every thought and insight you've ever had about redans, every experience playing them, your own personal favorites etc. 
*That's* what you bring to the table. 
If you sell yourself and the article short, you lose that advantage, i.e. you don't differentiate yourself from the dozens of other writers and bloggers who could write such an article.
Just from hanging around here and reading a few books, even someone like *me* could cobble together 300 words on "redans", sticking to the history and the basics and the theory etc.
What *you* bring to the table that none of the other writers do is the perspective of a tour level golfer who has played a variety of redans.
That's a rare combination. I think you should take advantage of it, IMHO.
Peter 
 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 09:19:34 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Michael Moore

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #82 on: June 26, 2017, 08:47:43 PM »
From the Riviera article -

"The green sits at a 45-degree angle and canters from right-to-left . . . "

Easy, boy! Whoah!




Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Zac Blair

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2017, 10:15:16 PM »


I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?

Zb


How about, how long should a Redan be for a PGA Tour event?


How long do you think it should be?


Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2017, 06:35:21 AM »


I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?

Zb


How about, how long should a Redan be for a PGA Tour event?


How long do you think it should be?

Probably would have to be as long as some of those Mike Davis par4s at Erin Hills to make the kicker work right since some were getting there w a long iron in Wisconsin.

Zac- I understand why you would want to write about the redan hole, it's the easy and obvious choice, but, I couldn't be less interested. The world doesn't need another article on the redan hole, you even know someone that wrote an article on them himself just a few months ago. What else is there to say?! While the one at the green briar might be one of The earliest ones and has the wicked dragon teeth mounds, writing about the redan is the most overdone subject in golf architecture. Try to find something a little more creative. Isn't that what architecture is all about? Maybe I would concentrate less on a specific hole and More on the dragons teeth mounds on a few of the holes and how hitting into them is actually a proper hazard for a pro while a bunkers are an ideal Miss most of the time for you guys on tour. Just a thought.

Good luck in the tree house. And do us all a favor and suggest some tree removal out there! Maybe stick a chainsaw in your caddies bag, cause their over planting is ruining some excellent long range views.


Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2017, 07:55:42 AM »

I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?

Zb


Zac- I understand why you would want to write about the redan hole, it's the easy and obvious choice, but, I couldn't be less interested. The world doesn't need another article on the redan hole...


Maybe you're right when it comes to this forum, but does the TV viewing audience know what the redan is?  I doubt it.  Sounds like a fine topic for them to me. 

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2017, 08:37:47 AM »


I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?

Zb


How about, how long should a Redan be for a PGA Tour event?


How long do you think it should be?


275 yards to a blind green
What % of players would complain?
How big should the green be?
The original appears to be 7,200 sft
Good luck

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2017, 08:38:16 AM »
Welcome Zac - the redan is a fine choice, one of many I'm guessing you'll write about going forward. Comparing the original lengths to today's Tour pro needs is a good idea to keep the strategy intact. Mentioning the wind and fast and firm is a must. And if you can draw, include some rudimentary sketches of how to play the hole - picture worth a thousand words when describing this stuff, esp. to a potentially disinterested GCA reader. Have fun.

Zac Blair

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2017, 09:20:04 AM »


I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?

Zb


How about, how long should a Redan be for a PGA Tour event?


How long do you think it should be?

Probably would have to be as long as some of those Mike Davis par4s at Erin Hills to make the kicker work right since some were getting there w a long iron in Wisconsin.

Zac- I understand why you would want to write about the redan hole, it's the easy and obvious choice, but, I couldn't be less interested. The world doesn't need another article on the redan hole, you even know someone that wrote an article on them himself just a few months ago. What else is there to say?! While the one at the green briar might be one of The earliest ones and has the wicked dragon teeth mounds, writing about the redan is the most overdone subject in golf architecture. Try to find something a little more creative. Isn't that what architecture is all about? Maybe I would concentrate less on a specific hole and More on the dragons teeth mounds on a few of the holes and how hitting into them is actually a proper hazard for a pro while a bunkers are an ideal Miss most of the time for you guys on tour. Just a thought.

Good luck in the tree house. And do us all a favor and suggest some tree removal out there! Maybe stick a chainsaw in your caddies bag, cause their over planting is ruining some excellent long range views.




I feel like these articles are to help people get introduced to golf course architecture... not necessarily for people on a site like this that are know everything about it.
I've read the things everyone on here said about my description on 10 at The Riv... and I understand to most on here there probably wasn't anything new...
But for all the people on here that said something like "what else is there to say" there was twice as many saying "wow I never knew that" ... I feel like I have a good platform to help teach people there is more to making a good sound golf hole than having a cool bunker or a beautiful backdrop.
There have been several people come up to me and tell me they are starting to get into gca because of some of these little write ups on these golf holes... so what better hole to write about than arguably one of the greatest par 3s templates in the world.


Again, I'm aware that people on this sight fully understand what a redan is... but there are plenty of people who don't have a clue and it could possibly open their eyes to Gca.


Me personally... playing greenbrier two years ago and playing the Biarritz and the redan was something that really got me interested in this stuff, so that's what I'm trying to do for others.


Zb




Bret Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2017, 11:01:46 AM »
Zac,


Welcome!  I think what you are doing is great.  Macdonald/Raynor/Banks architecture was my gateway drug to golf architecture too.  I was always interested in golf architecture and the different playing fields, since my first round of golf, but I wasnt really able to put my finger on why I felt so strongly about what I was seeing and playing.


I attended The Nissan Open back in the 90's at Riviera and was there mainly to see the golfers.  I knew about the green with the sand trap in the middle and that was the first hole we walked to when we arrived at the course.  I didn't really pay much attention to the 10th hole at the time, because like I said I really didn't know anything about golf architecture and no one put together a nice piece on the hole back then, which may have gotten me interested in the subject.


Once I came back to reside in CT I played Yale several times and was blown away by the course and kept asking people I would play with why this hole was named "Eden" and why this hole was named "Redan".  I felt like there was a deeper meaning in these names and I had to get to the bottom of it.  Thank goodness for the Internet, because after a few searches I found a lot more information than I ever thought I would find on the subject.  The names of the holes are what got me hooked because the names had a real purpose. 


I think doing a piece on the Redan would be great for people unfamiliar with architecture, but I think what is so great about the Macdonald courses is that many of the holes and features on the course were inspired by the classics which makes you dig a little deeper to understand why they work so well.  Making people dig a little deeper is what gets people interested, I think.


At this point, I am still learning a lot about golf architecture through this discussion group and will continue to do so for many years.  Good Luck with the piece.


Bret

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2017, 11:05:48 AM »
I'd like to know why the best players in the world can't or don't sling a draw on the 4th at Riviera. I've played the hole several times and don't believe that the Kikuyu prevents the hole from playing as a "Redan".

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2017, 11:08:05 AM »
I'd find it more useful to attempt to explain what a Redan isn't, rather than what one is.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

JESII

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2017, 11:38:28 AM »
I'd like to know why the best players in the world can't or don't sling a draw on the 4th at Riviera. I've played the hole several times and don't believe that the Kikuyu prevents the hole from playing as a "Redan".




Because the high straight 3 or 4 iron (or hybrid) is easier than hoping the ball bounces through the kikuya for them...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2017, 11:48:27 AM »
Jim,


I get that but also believe it is the reason they play the 4th at Riviera at a higher stroke average than most similar holes. In other words they are mistaken on the best play.

Zac Blair

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2017, 12:06:28 PM »
I'd like to know why the best players in the world can't or don't sling a draw on the 4th at Riviera. I've played the hole several times and don't believe that the Kikuyu prevents the hole from playing as a "Redan".




I would say mainly because it's unnecessary... you can hit a high 3 iron or hybrid that lands middle right and gets to all the pins.


Going right with a slinging draw isn't nearly as accurate and there is nothing stopping the tour players from just hitting a high ball to the front right right.


Zb

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2017, 10:33:08 AM »


I'm doing another piece like this for the PGA tour next week at the greenbrier. Thinking about doing it on the redan. Any thoughts?

Zb


How about, how long should a Redan be for a PGA Tour event?


I think a Redan for a PGA Tour event should play somewhere between 190-220 yards.  Why stretch it out and make extra tee boxes if they aren't going to use the options available?  To Tour players some of the strategy of a Redan is neglected, because whatever length you make it they will try to fly it high.  To them it is a dart board set on an angle with some slope from right to left.  Therefore, you are better off designing it for the common man and that way you won't have 7 tee boxes to maintain on every hole. At least in the case of the Greenbrier, you can't design all the holes for all people, all the time!


I think the same goes for the Biarritz.  What pro is going to try to run the ball through the swale, just so they can see the ball disappear and reappear? I'm not sure they like that kind of uncertainty.  The Biarritz is just an extraordinary large dart board to these guys.  I think these holes remain strategic in their recovery options if the player misses the green, but from the tee some of the charm is lost!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2017, 10:47:06 AM »

I think a Redan for a PGA Tour event should play somewhere between 190-220 yards.  Why stretch it out and make extra tee boxes if they aren't going to use the options available?  To Tour players some of the strategy of a Redan is neglected, because whatever length you make it they will try to fly it high.  To them it is a dart board set on an angle with some slope from right to left.  Therefore, you are better off designing it for the common man and that way you won't have 7 tee boxes to maintain on every hole. At least in the case of the Greenbrier, you can't design all the holes for all people, all the time!


I think the same goes for the Biarritz.  What pro is going to try to run the ball through the swale, just so they can see the ball disappear and reappear? I'm not sure they like that kind of uncertainty.  The Biarritz is just an extraordinary large dart board to these guys.  I think these holes remain strategic in their recovery options if the player misses the green, but from the tee some of the charm is lost!


Bret:


For what it's worth, I agree with you about the Redan.  For the record, that part about the slinging hook into the green? - that shot has never been used on the hole very much by anyone.  What makes the original work so well is that it normally plays dead downwind, so the green is very hard to hold, and that forces lots of players to try to sneak one onto the front right corner and hope it feeds down to the middle of the green.  But you don't really have to hit a draw for that shot.


I don't agree with you so much about the Biarritz.  It's not my favorite concept to begin with, but if you're going to build one, the original hole was long enough that almost nobody was trying to fly it to the back terrace.  The options were to hit your biggest shot and hope it landed in the swale and ran up, or to land the ball on the front terrace without a lot of spin, so the run through the swale would be more predictable.  Good players were hitting a very long club just to try to play it through the swale.  A comparable hole today for Tour pros would probably need to be 280 yards, or maybe even a bit more than that, depending on the pro.


P.S.  There is a lot about the Redan in my Little Red Book, as the topic has come up on GCA probably a hundred times.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #97 on: June 28, 2017, 03:35:37 PM »
This last exchange on the Redan and the Biarritz had me wondering:
Would it be a bad thing to now let go of any of the older/traditional concepts on how these templates should be played/were conceived to play?
In other words: might it be time to embrace the quality of the green sites/surrounds themselves, completely independent of the length of the hole?
Might we get more mileage - ie might better golf holes be created -- by stepping outside the old framework re length, even stepping outside any attempt to consciously lengthen these holes to 'match' the modern game?
Other than the historical thread, would golfers lose anything if modern architects kept only the 'greens' from these templates and used them wherever and however  they felt like?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 03:38:01 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2017, 05:33:13 PM »
Zac,


Please do not read anything on the Redan, time for a fresh perspective on the idea of the Redan instead of the same old regurgitated info that the so called experts have told you, us, the public in general what the hole stands for.


Freedom to express YOUR ideas, give the GCA crowd something different to digest!

Kelly Shumate

Re: Zac Blair No. 10 at Riviera CC
« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2017, 11:13:17 PM »
Zac,


I think it's great what you are doing.  You are exactly right in trying to get the concepts out to whatever crowd is interested and wanting to learn.


To answer the questions, I've been here for all 6 tour events and have seen it played from 146 - 238.   90% of the time when it blows we have a left to right cross wind here on this hole. 
I play it 1/2 club more for the uphill.




As to the dragon's teeth, they have been eliminated both on 8&17. 
Other mounding and native areas were brought back and enhanced throughout the rest of the course.  So many cool features brought back to life and can't wait for the masses to see.  I realize I'm biased on this course, but  I know what Keith F. did here was special and excited to here your feedback next week!   


Good luck with the podcast and the tournament!




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