Design features that slow down play and are they worth it?

[Jerry Kluger]

What design features do you feel slow down play and are they worth the extra time that they add to a round? 


A couple of obvious examples are drivable par 4s or reachable par 5s.


Another example would be a hole design that includes an out of bounds which could be avoided but would diminish the quality of the hole.  This is especially true where you have out of bounds within the course but it is there for safety reasons, etc.


I had been a member of a club with a very long and tough par 3 second hole that would really back up the first tee.

[Kyle Harris]

What design features do you feel slow down play and are they worth the extra time that they add to a round? 


A couple of obvious examples are drivable par 4s or reachable par 5s.


Another example would be a hole design that includes an out of bounds which could be avoided but would diminish the quality of the hole.  This is especially true where you have out of bounds within the course but it is there for safety reasons, etc.


I had been a member of a club with a very long and tough par 3 second hole that would really back up the first tee.

Do they slow down play or disrupt the rhythm of the game due to capacity? It's hard for me to suggest that you can speed up play by making the golfer hit more full shots.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Do mandatory cart paths count? Those slow down play way more then walking!

[Jerry Kluger]

It does seem that whenever we discuss pace of play we blame the players but can it sometimes be the fault of the design of a hole?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Undulating greens
Double greens

Long rough
Par 3 holes early in the round
Blind shots
Run offs from green
Bunkers


All need consideration but you need balance and with no undulations, no bunkers, no long rough/trouble it would be boring.

[archie_struthers]

 




Adrian nailed it pretty good .

[John Kavanaugh]

The hole is worth it. If everyone would putt out they wouldn't realize how slow everyone who does is playing.


I would go so far to say that features like reachable par 4's and 5's or par threes after a par 5 actually speed up play as the group on the green see people waiting and speed up. It's as natural to speed up because someone is pushing you as it is to chase someone in front of you. The caterpillar syndrome.

[jeffwarne]

The hole is worth it. If everyone would putt out they wouldn't realize how slow everyone who does is playing.


I would go so far to say that features like reachable par 4's and 5's or par threes after a par 5 actually speed up play as the group on the green see people waiting and speed up. It's as natural to speed up because someone is pushing you as it is to chase someone in front of you. The caterpillar syndrome.

wisdom

[Thomas Dai]

I would go so far to say that features like reachable par 4's and 5's or par threes after a par 5 actually speed up play as the group on the green see people waiting and speed up. It's as natural to speed up because someone is pushing you as it is to chase someone in front of you. The caterpillar syndrome.

Not sure I go along with this.
There's unfortunately a macho mentality amongst some - "your not pushing me to play faster", "I'm not giving way to you", "I've paid my money I'll play at the pace I like" etc etc.


atb

[John Kavanaugh]

I would go so far to say that features like reachable par 4's and 5's or par threes after a par 5 actually speed up play as the group on the green see people waiting and speed up. It's as natural to speed up because someone is pushing you as it is to chase someone in front of you. The caterpillar syndrome.

Not sure I go along with this.
There's unfortunately a macho mentality amongst some - "your not pushing me to play faster", "I'm not giving way to you", "I've paid my money I'll play at the pace I like" etc etc.


atb

True and why it is so vital to support your local club where you can create and maintain a culture of enjoyable golf. You can't push your money towards outside agencies in an attempt to pay less and expect to be treated like an insider. Don't do the crime if you can't play the time.

[BCowan]

True and why it is so vital to support your local club where you can create and maintain a culture of enjoyable golf

  Many people would like to support their local club and be a joiner, but the ruling class impedes the process of enjoyable golf. 

[John Kavanaugh]

True and why it is so vital to support your local club where you can create and maintain a culture of enjoyable golf

  Many people would like to support their local club and be a joiner, but the ruling class impedes the process of enjoyable golf.

Please give one example.

[Peter Pallotta]

Your entire philosophy of golf is lifted straight from a 1970s cop drama in which the hero's closest friend is a parrot?

[BCowan]

True and why it is so vital to support your local club where you can create and maintain a culture of enjoyable golf

  Many people would like to support their local club and be a joiner, but the ruling class impedes the process of enjoyable golf.

Please give one example.

Can't carry clubs till 4pm

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't understand how not carrying your clubs until 4pm impacts slow play. btw: An enjoyable golf culture will never mean getting everything you want when you want it. Sometimes you get what you want when you can get it which beats not getting it at all. Patience.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Any par 3 hole where the green is surrounded by water on at least two sides.

[John Kavanaugh]

Any par 3 hole where the green is surrounded by water on at least two sides.

Ian,


With red stakes don't you just drop a ball on the green and putt for par? I find dropping faster than chipping.

[BCowan]

I don't understand how not carrying your clubs until 4pm impacts slow play. btw: An enjoyable golf culture will never mean getting everything you want when you want it. Sometimes you get what you want when you can get it which beats not getting it at all. Patience.

John, not everyone knows how to play cart golf which impacts slow play  .  John, I'm low maint kinda guy.  I just want to golf, eat a burger and drink after the round.   I'm a happy golfer and would like others to have a chance at happiness. 

As far as reachable par 5's, I just try and lay up most of the time because I don't wanna hold anyone up and most times when you wait you hit a bad shot.  Good Karma.   

[Adrian_Stiff]

Any par 3 hole where the green is surrounded by water on at least two sides.

That is the opposite it actually quickens play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Yesterday my wife and I drove past a young man wearing a hat pushing his hatless child in a stroller. When my wife became despondent at the mans ignorance I explained to her that he put on a hat because his ears hurt and it was a natural response to a stimulation. The man wasn't being cruel to his child it's just he hadn't yet made the correlation between cause and effect. Sadly once they get home and the child cries because of an ear infection it will be too late.


I'm telling you this because like Ben said most cart riders don't know how to properly play cart golf. Please Ben, inform us.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Any par 3 hole where the green is surrounded by water on at least two sides.

Ian,


With red stakes don't you just drop a ball on the green and putt for par? I find dropping faster than chipping.

John, perhaps you and I wpuld do that.
But, in today's world (at least in the US), players would reload on the tee - perhaps repeatedly.

[Tom_Doak]

Almost ALL design features slow down play if you jam too many people on the course at one time.  Looking for balls slows play; raking bunkers; lining up putts; etc etc.  If we'd all just build boring golf courses, they wouldn't be so busy, and then play would move along just fine.


Slow golfers also slow down play.  It's funny how Scottish links have a lot of long grass, deep bunkers, and sometimes large, undulating greens, and if there are no Americans in the way, they still play in three hours.

[BCowan]

Yesterday my wife and I drove past a young man wearing a hat pushing his hatless child in a stroller. When my wife became despondent at the mans ignorance I explained to her that he put on a hat because his ears hurt and it was a natural response to a stimulation. The man wasn't being cruel to his child it's just he hadn't yet made the correlation between cause and effect. Sadly once they get home and the child cries because of an ear infection it will be too late.


I'm telling you this because like Ben said most cart riders don't know how to properly play cart golf. Please Ben, inform us.

John, I'm going to beat you at your own game today and use better analogies.  The child in the stroller is American Golf culture, the adult and I use that loosely is the 60 year old board member that is ignorant of the world around him, the market, and the history of Golf clubs where the game originated.  The latter is responsible for more then an ear infection.   


Here is a great thread one of my Buds did.  It should have an impact on you being a member of a Perry Maxwell course. 
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60220.msg1424411.html#msg1424411

[Carl Nichols]

Yesterday my wife and I drove past a young man wearing a hat pushing his hatless child in a stroller. When my wife became despondent at the mans ignorance I explained to her that he put on a hat because his ears hurt and it was a natural response to a stimulation. The man wasn't being cruel to his child it's just he hadn't yet made the correlation between cause and effect. Sadly once they get home and the child cries because of an ear infection it will be too late.


I'm telling you this because like Ben said most cart riders don't know how to properly play cart golf. Please Ben, inform us.

I don't think kids get ear infections from not wearing hats

[John Kavanaugh]

Carl,


I'm just glad I raised kids before killer peanuts. I did fight that damn ear tube that slopes inward and collects water leading to the collection of bacteria and ear infections. Pain for my kids and pain in the ass for me. So my kids wore hats...I found this interesting tid bit on a science forum:


Wind can lead to a chill and therefore lead to a viral URI. As viral URIs are the most frequent cause of bacterial ear infections (from inflammation and blockage of the Eustachian tube) it is therefore possible to get an ear infection from the wind (again indirectly). There are also some wind bourne fungi such as Cocci in California and the southwest or Histo in the ohio river valley which can sometimes cause URI type symptoms.[/size]So the long answer is yeah, you can get an ear infection from the wind...[/color]