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Mike Bodo

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Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« on: January 31, 2017, 07:46:17 PM »
With Golf Advisor becoming a major influential force amongst the retail golfing public, how much weight does their Top 50 list carry in the minds GCA's and non-GCA's alike?

http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/best-of-2016-top-50-31-courses-16228.htm

It's bizarre to see how the courses on this list varies greatly in comparison to the public courses on Golf Digests Top 100. I realize these aren't being evaluated by professional raters and the criteria to even qualify requires 15 reviews in a single year, which isn't a big sample size, but it calls into question if the value proposition of the public courses in GD's Top 100 is what's keeping them off Golf Advisor's list? Out of curiosity, how many course raters for the trade magazines go on Golf Advisor and post reviews?

Say what you will, but Golf Advisor has the capacity to do to the retail golf industry what Trip Advisor has done to hotel industry and leisure travel. For many retail golfers (particularly the younger generation), Golf Advisor is their "go to" resource in determining what courses to play. Thoughts?
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Jonathan Mallard

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2017, 08:11:38 PM »
The list is certainly generated without a bias toward outstanding architecture. I think only Harbor Town would get consideration here.


As for Golf Advisor's ability to 'move the needle' - that may well be.


We shall see what happens.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2017, 08:16:15 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 08:30:08 PM »
Gonna be tough to get anyone to pay $250 for that golden ticket.

David Wuthrich

Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 09:06:16 PM »

List is a joke ;D ;D

Mike Bodo

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 09:16:33 PM »

List is a joke ;D ;D


Personally, I agree with you, but there are a lot of retail golfers today who give more weight to this list than what the staid old golf publications have to say. I suspect many of them view the $250 and up round of golf at say a Bandon Dunes unattainable, but the courses on this list are doable.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

BCowan

Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 09:22:53 PM »
So pleased to see Red Hawk in Findlay, OH on there.  Used to drive an hour to play there.  Many Hills and Brauer tracks on there, these people know their market...


Ick, Golfnow owns it :'(
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 10:18:31 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Lyndell Young

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 10:07:18 PM »
Has anybody played Rams Hill best course in the US. Looks like conditions are are most important to Golf Advisor voters.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 10:16:13 PM by Lyndell Young »

Mike_Young

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 10:07:38 PM »
GolfNow....all tied together....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

mike_malone

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2017, 10:20:44 PM »
Baywood Greens is pedestrian.
AKA Mayday

Nigel Islam

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 11:34:30 PM »
Kelly Plantation #10?
I'd never heard of Harbour Links in Indiana.
Interesting list to say the least.

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2017, 05:37:05 AM »
With Golf Advisor becoming a major influential force amongst the retail golfing public, how much weight does their Top 50 list carry in the minds GCA's and non-GCA's alike?



Mike, I hope it carries a great deal of weight. Having looked at the list it seems to me to be full of really good golf courses that offer great value for money. Raters often have a skewed view of golf courses and often follow each other around the same amazing historic courses while occasionally peppering their bucket lists with a new course that gets propelled into the magazines by owners with PR machines. This looks to be the 'peoples list' determined by those who actually support the golf industry by paying green fees. Getting these ranking after 15- 20 years of operation is no mean feat and indicates to me they are well designed, sustainable courses being operated by caring and attentive owners.


I'd guess that most of these courses do not feature the torn-edged bunkers, sand hills and minimalism often celebrated on this site. Courses like the Georgia Club (number 2) are honest to goodness attractive and engaging places with high shots vales, all the while being fun and affordable. These type of places are the key to the healthy survival of the golf industry and so I applaud this list, and thank the players who have taken the time to give their honest, no-backs-to-scratch, views.


Thanks for posting the list.


Scott
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 05:39:55 AM by Scott Macpherson »

Joe Bausch

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2017, 08:11:21 AM »
Baywood Greens is pedestrian.


But it is pretty!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jim Franklin

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2017, 08:18:40 AM »
Baywood Greens is pedestrian.


But it is pretty!

It does have that going for it....which is.....nice?
Mr Hurricane

Brian Finn

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2017, 08:58:24 AM »
Is the list really so bad? Even for a bunch of architecture nerds, there is plenty of high quality golf on there. 

Harbour Town
Kiva Dunes
Ak-Chin Southern Dunes
FarmLinks
Mission Inn - El Campeon
Thistle GC
Bayonet
French Lick - Dye
Southern Hills Plantation
Red Hawk Run
LV Paiute x2
Edgewater GC
Ojai Valley Inn
Grand Cypress
TPC Valley

Do I believe these are the best 50 public courses in the country?  Of course not...but this list isn't aimed at me.  It's based on ratings from golfnow / golfadvisor users.  It has a different audience.  Real people.  I'd gladly play any of the 15 courses listed above, and I'm sure there are several more on the list that are lots of fun.

Scott Macpherson pretty much nails it.  Just thought I would add my two cents.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2017, 09:12:19 AM »

List is a joke ;D ;D


Personally, I agree with you, but there are a lot of retail golfers today who give more weight to this list than what the staid old golf publications have to say. I suspect many of them view the $250 and up round of golf at say a Bandon Dunes unattainable, but the courses on this list are doable.


Retail golfers do not generally care about GCA. Shit, most members at most private clubs don't either. I'm continually amazed when I hear golfers discuss a course they love and i perk up, chime in and ask, "Really? Who designed it?" Crickets...no clue.


From what I read, the list was compiled by retail golfer's reviews and not from any "top-down" criteria for architectural merit and integrity.


To answer the original question: ZERO weight for architectural reasons. BUT, TONS of weight for marketing reasons that identify what the upscale retail golfer covets and values for their playing experience.


This is a "bells and whistles" list, not a GCA list. Great hot dog at the turn, lovley "goody bag" from the starter with tees, ball mark and divot tool, hot cart girls, great bar, fun golf.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2017, 09:28:21 AM »
Another revelation from this list is how raters are treated by staff differently than civilians. Us pay and play golfers aren't all the bunch of Tourons the guys behind the counters of top 100 resorts make us out to be. I would guess each and every course on this list treated the customers who submitted a review with the same respect a rater who makes an appointment for his glorious visit received.

Josh Tarble

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2017, 09:39:02 AM »
Sorry, this list has Quintero on it.  Horrible list.  ;D

But in all seriousness, for much of the golfing population, this list is far more relevant than any magazine Top 100, including the GD Public Top 100.  All of these courses are budget friendly and attainable.  Some may be more architecturally interesting than others, but no one ever claims the Alotian is an architectural masterpiece.


Peter Pallotta

Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 10:01:09 AM »
It reminds me that some want an excellent *golfing* experience while many others want a pleasant experience that *happens to be* on a golf course -- and that experience includes being made to feel welcomed and valued and well taken care of from start to finish,  and leaving with a sense that you were respected and received value for your money. Who really ever wants to go to a place that in every way possible sends you signals that you're not their kind of people and you don't know the code/rules/game? Walk into any high-end bar or cafe in any recently gentrified neighbourhood in America, and you will see all kinds of people there -- everyone, that is, except for the very people who *grew up* in that neighbourhood.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 10:03:54 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike Bodo

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 11:35:47 AM »
It reminds me that some want an excellent *golfing* experience while many others want a pleasant experience that *happens to be* on a golf course -- and that experience includes being made to feel welcomed and valued and well taken care of from start to finish,  and leaving with a sense that you were respected and received value for your money. Who really ever wants to go to a place that in every way possible sends you signals that you're not their kind of people and you don't know the code/rules/game? Walk into any high-end bar or cafe in any recently gentrified neighbourhood in America, and you will see all kinds of people there -- everyone, that is, except for the very people who *grew up* in that neighbourhood.


Excellent points and all spot-on, IMO! To many in the retail golfing public, Golf Advisor's rankings carry more weight in determining courses they wish to play or spend vacation time/money on than Golf Digest, Golf Magazine, etc. because the reviews are largely posted by average Joe's, not the perceived gentrified raters in the aforementioned publications (note: this is no slight to any of you who are raters whatsoever).


I know GCA's have little control and say over this, as round rates are set by the owner/operator of the development, but it makes me wonder who all of these new elite courses that cost upwards of $200.00 a round catering too - the 1%'ers? If that's the case, you will eventually reach a point of diminishing returns, as capacity at some point will outstrip demand. I have to believe we are at or near that threshold. If I were a developer planning a new public course or resort, I would target the segment of the golfing public that can afford a $75.00 - $100.00 round of golf, as there are a lot more of those people out there than there are golfers who have no problem forking over $250.00 to $300.00 for 18 holes and a cart. The Golf Advisor Top 50 list epitomizes this philosophy, which I think is good for the long-term health of the sport.


It is going to be interesting to see how trends play out the next several years and if the more accessible mid to upper-tier courses on the Golf Advisor Top 50 or 100 list starts chipping away at rounds played at the GD Top 100 Public Courses and if that eventually leads to pricing pressure and reduced or special rates at say a Streamsong, Bandon Dunes, Whistling Straits, Pinehurst, etc.



"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Mike Bodo

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 11:51:52 AM »

Mike, I hope it carries a great deal of weight. Having looked at the list it seems to me to be full of really good golf courses that offer great value for money. Raters often have a skewed view of golf courses and often follow each other around the same amazing historic courses while occasionally peppering their bucket lists with a new course that gets propelled into the magazines by owners with PR machines. This looks to be the 'peoples list' determined by those who actually support the golf industry by paying green fees. Getting these ranking after 15- 20 years of operation is no mean feat and indicates to me they are well designed, sustainable courses being operated by caring and attentive owners.


I'd guess that most of these courses do not feature the torn-edged bunkers, sand hills and minimalism often celebrated on this site. Courses like the Georgia Club (number 2) are honest to goodness attractive and engaging places with high shots vales, all the while being fun and affordable. These type of places are the key to the healthy survival of the golf industry and so I applaud this list, and thank the players who have taken the time to give their honest, no-backs-to-scratch, views.


Thanks for posting the list.


Scott


Scott, thanks for your input. I couldn't agree more with a lot of your comments. It's as if we have two divergent schools of thought; the time-honored established protocol of courses ranked by accredited raters who often play the same limited pool of elite public and private courses and those rated the average middle-class retail golfer. Truth be told, there's nothing wrong with either list, as it brings two different types of experiences into play. I think it would be good for myself and others to play a few of the courses on the Golf Advisor list and compare the experiences to those on GD's Top 100 list that likely cost a lot more. From a personal standpoint, if I felt I got more bang for my buck and was treated better at a Golf Advisor Top 50 course than say a Golf Digest Top 100 course, I'll be more inclined to try other Golf Advisor Top 50 courses in the future. It think that is exactly what I will do this year.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Mike_Young

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 11:51:59 AM »
If anything this list shows that magazine ratings are just opinion.  The people here for some reason, probably business, choose these courses and it is no different than a list some on this site might choose....it's PREFERENCE....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Dave McCollum

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2017, 01:21:35 PM »
From a purely personal perspective, this list is like others in terms of how few courses I’ve played.  From this list I’ve played one.  As I glanced through, the list seemed to be skewed toward warm, longer season or year around golf locations (more rounds).  I didn’t read the methodology or bother to confirm this because ratings are not my thing.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2017, 01:22:15 PM »
Why isn't Arcadia Bluffs on this list? Every numbnut no connections average golf traveler I know loves the place.

Mike Bodo

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Re: Golf Advisor Top 50 Best Courses in the U.S.
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2017, 01:25:37 PM »
Why isn't Arcadia Bluffs on this list? Every numbnut no connections average golf traveler I know loves the place.
The course didn't receive enough reviews to qualify (need 15 within the past year).


http://www.golfadvisor.com/courses/7349-arcadia-bluffs-golf-course/


That said, 13 of the 14 reviews that were posted gave the course a Five-Star rating.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra