Alister MacKenzie's best 18

[Thomas Dai]

A comment on another thread got me thinking about the best-18 by individual designer which seemed a good idea for a thread, or even a series of threads.


So what would be Alister MacKenzie's best 18?


I hope this hasn't been done herein before, if so I'm sure someone will shout!


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[Sven Nilsen]

Thomas:


This has basically been done before.  About a year ago.  On a thread started by you.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62419.msg1484811.html#msg1484811


Sven

[Tom_Doak]

I'm sure I've done a MacKenzie eclectic before ... probably more than once.  I don't have it handy though.

[Kalen Braley]

How do you choose between Pasa 16 and CPC 16?   

[Thomas Dai]

Glad your nicely awake Sven, I obviously wasn't earlier!!
To move ahead from the previous attempt some personal eclectic MacK' would be interesting to read though.

Atb

[MClutterbuck]

How do you choose between Pasa 16 and CPC 16?   

You choose CPC 15 and a bunch of other CPC holes, and leave 16 to Pasa.

[Alex Miller]

How do you choose between Pasa 16 and CPC 16?   

You choose CPC 15 and a bunch of other CPC holes, and leave 16 to Pasa.

Pasa will get #3, and maybe #8, #10, #11, and #14. It will contribute in some way, but CPC 16 is the superior hole.

[Jon Wiggett]

How do you choose between Pasa 16 and CPC 16?   

You choose CPC 15 and a bunch of other CPC holes, and leave 16 to Pasa.

Pasa will get #3, and maybe #8, #10, #11, and #14. It will contribute in some way, but CPC 16 is the superior hole.

It has no chance of #8 Alex as that clearly belongs to Moortown. I recon #5 is Alwoodley.


Jon

[Tom_Doak]

How do you choose between Pasa 16 and CPC 16?   

You choose CPC 15 and a bunch of other CPC holes, and leave 16 to Pasa.

Pasa will get #3, and maybe #8, #10, #11, and #14. It will contribute in some way, but CPC 16 is the superior hole.

No course gets more than one hole in these!

Cypress Point would have to be either #16 or #9, if I was choosing.[/size][/size]#15 would be Kingston Heath - the only hole there that's really his.  Augusta would have to be #13 or #12 ... but we've already got two short holes for the back nine ... most of the other famous holes are drastically changed from MacKenzie's design!  #10 would be Cavendish.[size=78%]

[Niall C]

Tom


Presumably the trick here is to end up with a course that kind of fits together rather than just getting the best for each number ? In other words, having 16 par 4's might not be ideal. With that in mind I think you need to have a fair knowledge of Mac's overall portfolio to be able to put together a list like this, which is something that is beyond me but probably not you.


With that in mind, do you think there is a case to include a hole from Pitreavie and Duff House Royal ? Don't know how they rank on the larger stage but locally they are well thought of and have some cracking holes.


Niall

[Jim Nugent]

No course gets more than one hole in these!

Thomas did not specify that in his original post, and the title does not either. 

[Thomas Dai]

No course gets more than one hole in these!

Thomas did not specify that in his original post, and the title does not either.

One hole per course is the convention but there is always the opportunity for an 'honourable mention'.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

No course gets more than one hole in these!

Thomas did not specify that in his original post, and the title does not either.

No, he didn't, but it's a lot more interesting that way, than picking three from Crystal Downs and four from Cypress Point and three from Royal Melbourne, as a true "best 18" would likely produce.  And the Good Doctor surely built enough great courses to provide worthy candidates for all the holes.


I'm traveling today, so I don't have much time to think online, but here would be some of the candidate holes [all par-4's unless otherwise noted:


The Jockey Club (Red):  10 (5), 16, 18


The Valley Club:  3, 4 (3), 5, 11 (3), 14 (3), 15 (5)
The Meadow Club:  need help here, it's been ages:  7th ?
Cypress Point:  9, 15 (3), 16 (3), 17
Pasatiempo:  1, 5 (3), 10, 14, 15 (3), 16
Claremont:  11, though that hole might pre-date MacKenzie
Crystal Downs:  1, 5, 6, 7, 8 (5)
U of M:  need help
Ohio State:  need help - if there is anything left
Augusta:  5, 8 (5), 12 (3), 13 (5)
Palmetto:  2, 7 (3), 10 (5), 14 (5)


Royal Melbourne West:  3, 4, 5 (3), 6, 10, 11, 17
Victoria:  9 (5), 15
Kingston Heath:  15 (3) was really his only hole
Royal Adelaide:  3, 4, 11, 14
New South Wales:  5 (5), 7, 14


Lahinch:  9, 10, 11 (3), 13


I will let our UK contingent nominate some holes there.  10 at Cavendish has got to be in the list.  8 at Moortown is not as good as 8 at Crystal Downs, but the Doctor was fonder of the former, having never seen the latter finished; and Crystal Downs has plenty of other candidates.


Note:  funny that I haven't picked many 18th holes at all.  Ran used to say these were my weakness ... maybe I was just imitating without thinking about it.

[Sean_A]

Palmetto: 4 & 7(3)


UofM: 3(5), 6 & 12(3)


Alwoodley: 5 & 8(5)


Moortown: 10(3)


Cavendish:3, 10, 13(3), 15(3) & 18


Reddish Vale: 13


Worcestershire: 14


Littlestone: 16 & 17(3)...there may be others, but I don't know which holes are Dr Mac's


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Others worth considering that I doubt many will know are 16th and 17th at Headingly in Leeds and the 2nd, 17th & 18th at Howley Hall just outside Morley, Leeds. There are countless other possibilities in Yorkshire.


Jon

[BCrosby]

Glad to see the 8th at ANGC on Tom's list. A great hole that tends to get overlooked.


Bob

[Mike Schott]

Tom, I would say that at Meadow Club that 7 and 11 are the best holes on the course and 18 could be excellent if they eliminated a few trees on the dogleg. I have not played TOC but 11 at Meadow Club seems to be a template of their 11th hole. It's a terrific hole.

[Thomas Dai]

I've gone through the various posts and arrived at the following holes from those mentioned by all posters.

They are in no particular order except that the first ones listed against each hole number are those suggested by someone who wrote a book about Alister MacKenzie.

1
Pasatiempo
Crystal Downs
Osu Scarlet

2
Palmetto
Howley Hall
Royal Melbourne West

3
Valley Club
Royal Melbourne West
Royal Adalaide
Pasatiempo
UoM
Cavendish

4
Valley Club
Royal Melbourne West
Royal Adalaide
Palmetto

5
Valley Club
Pasatiemp
Crystal Downs
ANGC
Royal Melbourne West
New South Wales
Alwoodley
Moortown

6
Crystal Downs
Royal Melbourne West
UoM
Sutton Coldfield (winter)
New South Wales

7
Crystal Downs
New South Wales
Meadow Club?
Palmetto

8
Crystal Downs
ANGC
Moortown
Pasatiemp
Alwoodley

9
Cypress Point
Victoria
Lahinch
Pasatiempo

10
Jockey Club Red
Pasatiempo
Palmetto
Royal Mebourne West
Lahinch
Cavendish
Moortown
Sandmoor

11
Valley Club
Royal Melbourne West
Royal Adalaide
Lahinch
Claremont?
Pasatiempo
Meadow Club
Alwoodley
ANGC
Osu Scarlet

12
ANGC
UoM
Worcester UK
Pasatiempo

13
ANGC
Lahinch
Cavendish
Reddish Vale
Pasatiempo
Cypress Point

14
Valley Club
Pasatiempo
Palmetto
Royal Adalaide
New South Wales
The Worcestershire
UoM

15
Valley Club
Cypress Point
Pasatiemp
Victoria
Kingston Heath
Cavendish
UoM

16
Jockey Club Red
Cypress Point
Pasatiempo
Littlestone
Headingly

17
Cypress Point
Royal Melbourne West
Littlestone
Headingly
Howley Hall
Sandmoor
Pasatiempo
Crystal Downs

18
Jockey Club Red
Cavendish
Howley Hall
Pasatiempo

This would seem to be a summary of the above and on the earlier thread highlighted by Sven.

Thoughts from here on.

No more than 1 hole from each course.

Atb