What makes Riviera so unique?

[Kalen Braley]

Tiger just admitted its his kyprotonite over the years, despite enjoying playing there otherwise. ""I've always loved playing Riv," Woods said. "I just never played it well."


Any unique things in the design, maintenance , or otherwise to explain why this course would neuter the previously unspayed one who succeeded on so many different types of other courses?




http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/tiger-woods-is-ready-for-the-next-chapter-as-latest-comeback-unfolds-starting-this-week/ar-AAma8vF

[jeffwarne]

Poaey bumpy greens he can't make every single 10 footer on

[Kalen Braley]

Poaey bumpy greens he can't make every single 10 footer on

But he had lots of success at Pebble including a record setting Open performance, which arguably has the worst Poa greens of any course on tour.


He also did extremely well at Torrey, even before they redid those poa infested greens.


I don't think bumpy greens is the reason...

[Sven Nilsen]

Angles and precision.  Doesn't work so great for a bomb and gouger.

[Terry Lavin]

Angles and precision.  Doesn't work so great for a bomb and gouger.

I'll go with this suggestion. It's a very tight course with a lot of sycamore and eucalyptus trees that get in the way. The grasses also frustrate most players. I've played it five times and love it but it can be frustrating.

[Matthew Essig]

The kikuyu grass?

[Tom_Doak]

Poaey bumpy greens he can't make every single 10 footer on

That's a good start, I think.  He may have had more trouble reading those greens than most, too.  The way the course sits down in the canyon, it's hard to notice the subtle fall toward the far end.


All the trees out there are certainly a factor -- less ability to make a brilliant recovery from a wayward drive.


And don't forget, the kikuyu fairways and roughs are just a different surface than anywhere else the pros play.  For someone whose iron play and recovery play was as precise as Tiger, perhaps the different surface affected him in ways we wouldn't readily understand.  I don't remember any of his flop-shot heroics coming at Riv.


Tiger was always head and shoulders above others when it came to plotting his way around the course and avoiding the things that must be avoided -- if there's something about Riviera he couldn't figure out, I don't know what it would be.  But if it IS the grass around the greens that gave him fits, there's not much way to plan your way around that, anyway.

[John Kavanaugh]

It's hard to ignore the fact that Nicklaus never won there either. The champions of the "LA Open" is a potpourri of major winners displaying various skill sets. I chalk it up to the simple fact that Hollywood has a mystical control over whose star shines and where. Or they once did, that is.


LA Open champions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Open

[Matthew Sander]

Tiger just admitted its his kyprotonite over the years, despite enjoying playing there otherwise. ""I've always loved playing Riv," Woods said. "I just never played it well."

That is actually a very refreshing quote coming from a tour pro. 99.9% of the time, when they suggest that they like a particular course it means they play it well, it  fits their "eye", it is "fair", and/or it is presented in immaculate condition.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm thinking that it's not so much what Tiger can't do there as much as what many other golfers can do. He says he has never played it particularly well; I think he has played it well, it's just that he hasn't won (which is really the only metric for him). Same as with JN - it's not that Tiger at Riviera isn't still a better golfer than anyone else, it's that he's not exponentially better (as he was, say, at Firestone or Bay Hill). Riviera is simply a higher-quality golf course, and a higher quality course opens the door to different types/styles of golfer.
Peter

[jeffwarne]

Poaey bumpy greens he can't make every single 10 footer on

But he had lots of success at Pebble including a record setting Open performance, which arguably has the worst Poa greens of any course on tour.


He also did extremely well at Torrey, even before they redid those poa infested greens.


I don't think bumpy greens is the reason...

true

[John Kavanaugh]

If Tiger plays this year he will win. There has never been a year since Tiger became an adult where it would benefit the powers that be like it would this year. What a wonderful distraction, without disrupting anyone else's forgone conclusion, this would be.

[George Pazin]

A quick check reveals 9 starts, w 2 2nds, a 3rd, a 5th, a couple T13s, a couple T20s and a WD (2006). I remember at least one of those 2nds was to Billy Mayfair in a playoff at a different venue, but overall not a bad Riviera resume, just not Tigeresque. Certainly not nearly enough of a sample size to make a definitive pronouncement, I suspect he was just trying to be humble.


Too bad Buick sponsored Torrey for all those years instead of Riviera...

[Kalen Braley]

Interesting responses all.


Given that he's also played several tighter venues well, like Firestone, several U.S. Opens, etc i suspect its not the tightness either..


Seems like the grass is the likely culprit.  The few times I've played on Kikuyu it certainly threw me for a loop.  Perhaps the combination of greenside rough that doesn't release, and the quick greens make recovery a lot more tricky there.

[Mike Bodo]

The kikuyu grass?

That and the course being tight is what I was thinking. Hard to predict how the ball will come out of the kikuyu grass from the rough and around the greens and with the way he used to miss fairways it was tough course for him to score low on.

[Mike Bodo]

It's hard to ignore the fact that Nicklaus never won there either. The champions of the "LA Open" is a potpourri of major winners displaying various skill sets. I chalk it up to the simple fact that Hollywood has a mystical control over whose star shines and where. Or they once did, that is.


LA Open champions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Open

I'm scratching my head as to how Bubba has won there two of the past three years given the tightness of the course and his inconsistency off the tee. I would think those factors would keep him from scoring as well as he does on a more wide open course such as Augusta, but perhaps there is something about the course that suits his eye?

[John Kavanaugh]

Where exactly is the tightness for a guy who works the ball both ways?


As far as Jack and Tiger goes...when your heart is in April your mind wonders in February. 

[Pat Burke]

IMO
If riviera was in the same kind of condition back in early 2000's as it is now,
Tiger probably would have played more often/had more success.


In no way excusing anything, but Riviera was pretty ordinary at best conditions wise in the 90's and early 00s


Should be able to play anything, but just my thought fwiw!

[Pete Lavallee]

Saying Tiger can't play off Kikuyu when he grew up in So Cal is ridiculous! Every public course here has it. Torrey has it so I think that disputes that theory nicely.

Also every public course in So Cal has Poa Annua greens, just like Torrey so obviously that isn't the reason either!

I think the reason is quite easy to figure out. Tiger spent a career slaying the par 5's. Look at his lifetime stats; around even par on par 3's and par 4's but several thousand under par on par 5's. Now everyone reaches #1 at Riviera with an iron so it really is just another long par 4. Hardly anyone reaches # 17, even Tiger, so that only leaves #11 for him to have an edge on the field. Just not a big enough advantage and therefore no domination! Tiger needs 4 reachable par 5's top dominate; Torrey is the perfect example of that.

[Jim Nugent]

An article in one of the golf magazines years ago asked this very question.  Their analysis found a simple answer: Tiger's putting sucked at Riviera.  Don't recall the exact stats, but while his ball striking was fine, he completely fell apart on the greens. 

[Kalen Braley]

Pete,


I think the Par 5 theory is an interesting one, but it doesn't square with all of his success in the majors where many par 5s are converted to par 4s....and he still dominated everyone.

[Mike Bodo]

Proof is in the pudding. I guarantee if you compare Tiger's % fairways hit, GIR's and putts per round at Riviera they are below or above (in the case of putts per round) his historical average.

[Matthew Sander]

Saying Tiger can't play off Kikuyu when he grew up in So Cal is ridiculous! Every public course here has it. Torrey has it so I think that disputes that theory nicely.

Also every public course in So Cal has Poa Annua greens, just like Torrey so obviously that isn't the reason either!

I think the reason is quite easy to figure out. Tiger spent a career slaying the par 5's. Look at his lifetime stats; around even par on par 3's and par 4's but several thousand under par on par 5's. Now everyone reaches #1 at Riviera with an iron so it really is just another long par 4. Hardly anyone reaches # 17, even Tiger, so that only leaves #11 for him to have an edge on the field. Just not a big enough advantage and therefore no domination! Tiger needs 4 reachable par 5's top dominate; Torrey is the perfect example of that.

H Pete,


The theory makes sense, but he did plenty of winning at Warwick Hills (MI) which they played as a par 70 .

[Matthew Sander]

Oops, disregard my previous post. When I looked I found that Warwick Hills did play to a par 72. Ready, fire, aim!

[Pete Lavallee]

Karlen,


Mark Broadie revolutionized golf statistics with his "strokes gained" concept. His work showed that Tiger distinguished himself from the field with shots from the 200-250 yard range; no one was better at them than him in his heyday. Now where does the modern Tour Pro hit those shots? Why as second shots into par 5's or into par 5's converted to par long par 4's. The more opportunity he had to display this skill the more he dominated. Riviera just doesn't test that portion of your game, except for at #11.