AJGA

[texsport]

Success at AJGA events is vital to showing those coaches a player has the talent to compete with the best.

Shouldn't this be "Success at AJGA events or in top-level junior amateur and amateur competitions" or do you believe that success in non-AJGA amateur competition is devalued by college recruiters?

For instance, surely qualifying for the US Open, winning a couple matches in the match-play at the US Amateur or playing in the semis at the Junior Amateur would be more impressive than a win or two in AJGA events. Or least it should be, IMO.

The national level tournaments are the elite level, sort of like the majors on the tour, and really show who the PGA caliber players of the future are--not just D-1 scholarship players.

[Dan_Callahan]

Shouldn't this be "Success at AJGA events or in top-level junior amateur and amateur competitions"

Yes.

[Mike_Young]

I'm not sure what your complaint about young pros not knowing the difference in being professional golfers and golf professionals is. You'd have to clarify that before I could have an opinion. Are you saying that the youngsters shouldn't act like they can play golf well--because they must to get A classification, or, that they don't treat your club like a business job enough, or, that it's a tough road to get a class A and get a Head pro job?

I would not call it a complaint.  I would say it is not thst hard to pass the PAT if they have een a legitimate professional golfer or 2 handicapper.  I would say they jaded at what being a club professional entails. But many have no desire to be a club professional and because they have been hanging around playing mini-mini tours for 10 years sometimes they know nothing else to do and thus end up trying to get into the club professional business...and when they get there they think they are still supposed to play yet as many club professionals such as Jeff W will tell you...playing takes a back seat.   I see so many that have no chance of succeeding as a professional golfer yet either because their parent can support it or they can find a sponsor they waste away at 5 or 10 years of so-called mini tour.  And most seem to have a very weak practice ethic.  I have come to the point where I am not impressed with the golf of any of these guys if they can't crack at least the Nationwide Tour.  Right now anyone that wishes to play a professional tour can find one to play as long as he pays the entry fees.  
Anyway, I think it is important for kids to realize when it is time to move on and enjoy golf on an amateur level  without wasting 10 years of playing at playing professionally.

[peter_p]

Mike,
     Reading you initial post I think your question was why the USGA has an agreement with the AJGA, but with no other junior "tours". No one has addressed that. I was concerned until I read the general agreement thru http://www.usga.org/aboutus/foundation/national_partnerships/national_partnerships.html    I'm okay with it as long as it doesn't mean an exclusive.
     AJGA does serve as a great help to college golf coaches in recruitment. The bottom line if you want a (1/2) scholarship is to do self-promotion. It's the same in golf as it is elsewhere.  

[Mike_Young]

Peter,
I am with you on what you say.  BUT they have to be very careful at this point.  

[Jim Nugent]

AJGA is not the only game in town for junior golfers, is it?  Aren't there lots of other programs, tournaments, etc. for young golfers of all abilities?  

If so, I don't see the problem with a program aimed at the elite players.

[peter_p]

    One example of a competitor to the AJGA is Jim McLean's Future Collegiate World Tour, which conducts touraments nationwide. Does the USGA collaboration with AJGA give it an advantage in attracting juniors? Does the collaboration diminish the likelihood of a golfer choosing the FCWT? I don't know.
       

[ForkaB]

Viewing this from afar, it seems that there are two issues being discussed.

Firstly, is the AJGA (or whatever other sorts of "hot housing" for aspiring professionals) good or bad for the kids involved.  I would say good,even though it will cost parents mucho dinero y tiempo.  It's their choice, and aspiring to excellence is a very important thing to instill in children, even if only 2% of the best 2% will ever make the big time.

The second (and most important, IMHO) issue is the one Tom Doak raised, i.e. how does the AJGA (or equivalent), contribute to building the game of golf in the future.  I would say, not much.  The game accommodates (and needs) players of all abilities, who adopt it as one of their games for life.  To the degree that junior golf is focused only the potentially elite players, the future of the game suffers.

[Mike_Young]

Viewing this from afar, it seems that there are two issues being discussed.

Firstly, is the AJGA (or whatever other sorts of "hot housing" for aspiring professionals) good or bad for the kids involved.  I would say good,even though it will cost parents mucho dinero y tiempo.  It's their choice, and aspiring to excellence is a very important thing to instill in children, even if only 2% of the best 2% will ever make the big time.

The second (and most important, IMHO) issue is the one Tom Doak raised, i.e. how does the AJGA (or equivalent), contribute to building the game of golf in the future.  I would say, not much.  The game accommodates (and needs) players of all abilities, who adopt it as one of their games for life.  To the degree that junior golf is focused only the potentially elite players, the future of the game suffers.

Rich,
Aspiring to excellence can be attained in many ways.  But I am more concerned with the results from your second paragraph.  I play at a club where the #1 collegiate team in the USA plays and most if not all of these guys came up thru AJGA.  IMHO coming up as a junior working in the cartbarn, striping balls, cleaning clubs, walking, practicing and using whatever balls you find is a much better experience than a one dimensional, all time consuming, expensive tour where a kid can go thru 4 or 5 years of junior high and highschool w/o ever having time for a job.  AND look how many guys end up on tour that were not great junior players because they were developing where as so many of these all consuming junior stars go into a college environment and for the first time see something other than golf (like girls) and their interest tends to drop.  Many are burned out b4 they turn 20.  And then they hit the real world w/o ever having had a job and it is tough on them.  I know I have hired a couple in the past.  JMO

[A.G._Crockett]

Viewing this from afar, it seems that there are two issues being discussed.

Firstly, is the AJGA (or whatever other sorts of "hot housing" for aspiring professionals) good or bad for the kids involved.  I would say good,even though it will cost parents mucho dinero y tiempo.  It's their choice, and aspiring to excellence is a very important thing to instill in children, even if only 2% of the best 2% will ever make the big time.

The second (and most important, IMHO) issue is the one Tom Doak raised, i.e. how does the AJGA (or equivalent), contribute to building the game of golf in the future.  I would say, not much.  The game accommodates (and needs) players of all abilities, who adopt it as one of their games for life.  To the degree that junior golf is focused only the potentially elite players, the future of the game suffers.

Rich,
Aspiring to excellence can be attained in many ways.  But I am more concerned with the results from your second paragraph.  I play at a club where the #1 collegiate team in the USA plays and most if not all of these guys came up thru AJGA.  IMHO coming up as a junior working in the cartbarn, striping balls, cleaning clubs, walking, practicing and using whatever balls you find is a much better experience than a one dimensional, all time consuming, expensive tour where a kid can go thru 4 or 5 years of junior high and highschool w/o ever having time for a job.  AND look how many guys end up on tour that were not great junior players because they were developing where as so many of these all consuming junior stars go into a college environment and for the first time see something other than golf (like girls) and their interest tends to drop.  Many are burned out b4 they turn 20.  And then they hit the real world w/o ever having had a job and it is tough on them.  I know I have hired a couple in the past.  JMO

Amen.  It's too late to put the genie back in the lamp, but amen.

[jeffwarne]

Again I have no doubt the AJGA is a great organization.
And it provides a venue for the elite to display their games.
But the elite are going to get scholarships anyway, they got scholarships long before a nationwide JR. tour existed.

The mediocre are out there chasing exposure, when where they really need to focus their energy is on practice habits and skill development.
The great thing about golf is you shoot a score -so if a kid shoots 71-68 to win his high school state championship and shoots 70 in the junior amateur qualifier, I probably don't need to see his scores at The Lubbock Wendy's AJGA  Open.
I might take note of how he did when travelling, but would not hold his lack of travel against him.

If I were a coach, I would concentrate on the local events in a given region, particularly the southeast.
USC Aiken is a model of such recruiting or lack of. They consistently win events against ranked D-1 schools and dominate at the D-2,3level.
You would probably find more hard working gems from somewhat modest backgrounds who appreciated all they were given.
Kids who have travelled nationally without the resume in search of a scholarship may come from a background of entitlement whether imposed by  wealthy parentage or undue/misplaced parental sacrifice. It is the player that needs to be making the sacrifice ,via time and work ethic, not the parents.

The other thing that i would fear multiple nationwide tours and events would do is dilute local events where participation might be down by players of all levels. I'm sure many touring AJGA juniors don't bother to play in many local events because of ego or scheduling issues.
This probably cuts down on buzz and participation in such events, limiting participation by players of all levels, leading to less growth in the game.
Bottom line, I'd love to see many more local junior events in a given area populated by players in the 0-10 handicap range as opposed to events limited to the elite few all over the place. This would hopefully keep junior golfers of limited ability competing longer, and somehow i think the elite would still get their scholarships- and perhaps, have a better idea of how to win as opposed to how to finish tied for 13th.

might just aid us in the ryder Cup

[Tim Gavrich]

   One example of a competitor to the AJGA is Jim McLean's Future Collegiate World Tour, which conducts touraments nationwide. Does the USGA collaboration with AJGA give it an advantage in attracting juniors? Does the collaboration diminish the likelihood of a golfer choosing the FCWT? I don't know.
       

Peter--
Just to clarify, The AJGA and FCWT are not to be considered together, as they are not concurrent.  While the AJGA is run from early spring to early fall, the FCWT runs during the school year, from mid-fall to Memorial Day.  There is only minimal to no overlap.

As a junior golfer, I split junior golf as a whole into four main parts.
1. National Summer Junior Golf (i.e. AJGA and major summer tournaments)
2. National School-Year Junior Golf (i.e. FCWT, IJGT, and PJGT[PJGT to a lesser extent; more informal and geared towards younger kids])
3. Local Summer Junior Golf (i.e. the CT Sierra Mist Tour, N(ew)E(ngland)JGA
4. Local School-Year Junior Golf (the only one I know is the US Challenge Cup, which actually holds tournaments from April to November)

As you would expect, 1 & 3 tend to be mutually exclusive.  2 & 4 to a lesser extent, but still.  I can tell you that the better players in CT opt for #1, because the Sierra Mist CT tour comprises only single-day events, and in order to be ranked on the National Junior Golf Scoreboard, one must play in 36+ hole events.  The NJGS is one of the primary resources for college coaches, so if you want to get recognized, you must play in some NJGS-ranked events.  It's quite a trip to look at the statistics and rankings.  It'll really tell you just how complex junior golf has become.

I love playing in tournaments, because I get to meet all kinds of people.  In the Doral-Publix tournament, I played with kids from Denmark, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Zimbabwe, and Martinique.  It was a lot of fun.  Super-competitive, but a lot of fun.

This ain't your Daddy's junior golf scene anymore.  It isn't for everyone, but it can be both challenging, frustrating, and rewarding at the same time.  Sound familiar?  Perhaps a parallel to the game itself?
 

[texsport]

I'm not sure what your complaint about young pros not knowing the difference in being professional golfers and golf professionals is. You'd have to clarify that before I could have an opinion. Are you saying that the youngsters shouldn't act like they can play golf well--because they must to get A classification, or, that they don't treat your club like a business job enough, or, that it's a tough road to get a class A and get a Head pro job?

I would not call it a complaint.  I would say it is not thst hard to pass the PAT if they have een a legitimate professional golfer or 2 handicapper.  I would say they jaded at what being a club professional entails. But many have no desire to be a club professional and because they have been hanging around playing mini-mini tours for 10 years sometimes they know nothing else to do and thus end up trying to get into the club professional business...and when they get there they think they are still supposed to play yet as many club professionals such as Jeff W will tell you...playing takes a back seat.   I see so many that have no chance of succeeding as a professional golfer yet either because their parent can support it or they can find a sponsor they waste away at 5 or 10 years of so-called mini tour.  And most seem to have a very weak practice ethic.  I have come to the point where I am not impressed with the golf of any of these guys if they can't crack at least the Nationwide Tour.  Right now anyone that wishes to play a professional tour can find one to play as long as he pays the entry fees.  
Anyway, I think it is important for kids to realize when it is time to move on and enjoy golf on an amateur level  without wasting 10 years of playing at playing professionally.

I understand that you feel sorry for these kids, but how is it the AJGA's fault that kids haven't grown up or that the Head Pro interviewing them for an assistant's job can't figure out whether they're serious about being a golf professional or not?

If there's a shortage of candidates for Assistant's jobs, and that's why they're being hired, maybe there aren't that many kids that want to be golf professionals, and that would be a more serious problem than the one you've described.

[Mike_Young]

I'm not sure what your complaint about young pros not knowing the difference in being professional golfers and golf professionals is. You'd have to clarify that before I could have an opinion. Are you saying that the youngsters shouldn't act like they can play golf well--because they must to get A classification, or, that they don't treat your club like a business job enough, or, that it's a tough road to get a class A and get a Head pro job?

I would not call it a complaint.  I would say it is not thst hard to pass the PAT if they have een a legitimate professional golfer or 2 handicapper.  I would say they jaded at what being a club professional entails. But many have no desire to be a club professional and because they have been hanging around playing mini-mini tours for 10 years sometimes they know nothing else to do and thus end up trying to get into the club professional business...and when they get there they think they are still supposed to play yet as many club professionals such as Jeff W will tell you...playing takes a back seat.   I see so many that have no chance of succeeding as a professional golfer yet either because their parent can support it or they can find a sponsor they waste away at 5 or 10 years of so-called mini tour.  And most seem to have a very weak practice ethic.  I have come to the point where I am not impressed with the golf of any of these guys if they can't crack at least the Nationwide Tour.  Right now anyone that wishes to play a professional tour can find one to play as long as he pays the entry fees.  
Anyway, I think it is important for kids to realize when it is time to move on and enjoy golf on an amateur level  without wasting 10 years of playing at playing professionally.

I understand that you feel sorry for these kids, but how is it the AJGA's fault that kids haven't grown up or that the Head Pro interviewing them for an assistant's job can't figure out whether they're serious about being a golf professional or not?

If there's a shortage of candidates for Assistant's jobs, and that's why they're being hired, maybe there aren't that many kids that want to be golf professionals, and that would be a more serious problem than the one you've described.

John,
Let's just agree to disagree on this one.  
MY

[jeffwarne]

Didn't want to start a new topic so dug this out.


sitting here suffering from the flu and watching the PGA Show(where I was scheduled to be) on the Golf Channel.


Watching the various suits discuss the "Business" of golf and all of their self serving ideas and new top heavy associations.
Not sure if the feeling in my stomach is a new flu symptom or from what I'm seeing on TV


It occurs to me there are not enough ways for a junior to participate or get involved with the game competively on an introductory basis. (although PGA junior league is a step in the right direction)


Over the last 20 years, Jr. Golf, the AJGA etc. has created an entire generation of incredible PGA Tour level, Web.com, elite amateur, and low handicap golfer.
The younger players are better than ever at all ages.


My question is:
How many avid golfers have been created?
What outlets are there for the 15-30 handicap junior player to be and stay involved much like your typical club golfer?
Are there junior handicap events?


Going out and playing stroke play in an event as a 20 handicap is painful enough for adults, what is it like for the developing junior to have to finish every hole to its bitter conclusion?


In soccer there is always room for a player who may not be the best athlete to feel part of an 11 man team-same in baseball, football-less so in basketball. In golf, it's tough to hide when counting every shot.


Not criticizing-just asking.


We have local inter club on the east end here(started by Maidstone's Eden Foster) which tends to be a bit more social as its only nine holes so the most competitive jrs tend to not be available or have bigger fish to fry.
The most popular events tend to be scrambles or best balls-but many are stroke play.It has become so popular we had to split into two divisions this year.


Seems to me we need more of this and less AJGA style events-which would seem to me to merely make College Golf Coaches lives easier rather than serving much positive purpose for most juniors and their families.
or at least simply more of the former...


Are we retaining many 15-25 handicap juniors? or does that subset come from people who take up the game later in life, or get back into it later in life.
It would seem there are potentially WAAAAAYYYY more of these that slip through the cracks and out of golf due in their teens to a feeling of having no chance to compete

[BCowan]

I grew up with the Toledo Junior District Golf Association.  Can't beat the opportunity to play good public and private courses for $15 and get a hot dog and a pop.  It's really people on the local scene that do all the heavy lifting and get no publicity.  They don't seek it, they just give back to the game what it has given them.   

[jeffwarne]

I grew up with the Toledo Junior District Golf Association.  Can't beat the opportunity to play good public and private courses for $15 and get a hot dog and a pop.  It's really people on the local scene that do all the heavy lifting and get no publicity.  They don't seek it, they just give back to the game what it has given them.   

another 20 hdcp retained...

[BHoover]

Do you mean to suggest that encouraging parents to fork over $500 for a new driver is not growing the game??? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Not sure why I didn't respond back in 2006, when my son Andrew was actually active on the junior golf scene.  To be clear, like Toledo, Dallas has several junior level circuits.  Kids who want to sort of work their way up to the AJGA, but have a choice (or had at that time) to remain on a more local circuit.


Andrew sort of mixed it up.  We did take him to AJGA tourneys in Alabama and Missouri, maybe a few more.  Of course, he played in all the Texas ones, and I recall letting him go to Austin alone, using my hotel points to reduce the cost of travel.  In the end, he was ranked 104 nationally, and made the top 100 tourney in NC, playing on a Paul Cowley/Davis Love course, when Fukijawa (?) dropped out because he qualified for the US Open. So overall, it was a success.


As to the investment portion, he turned down some partial scholarships for a full ride at a two year college in Texas (the now long gone girlfriend influence) and we used some of his college fund to get him a car instead.  And he just missed being a JC All American, finishing in the top 25 (top 20 are AA) in both the national end of year tourneys.


Short version, it can be good and there aren't any dearth of other and lesser competitive opportunities for those so inclined.  It was tough to get into the tourneys, with a rigid point system.  I was lucky to get him some exemptions via my golf connections. 


And, the worst part was the rules ignorance of players and parents.  In his first trip to KC area, his opponent hit in water and his Dad declared it lateral, so "drop here."  They ended up nearly tied, and it demonstrated how some of those rules violations could really cost a legit player in getting the points needed to get into the next tournament.  It was a tough system, and there were no participation trophies.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Jeff, the middle schools in my area all have golf teams.  They play 9 hole matches at local "executive" courses (9 holes, usually par 32 or 33).  Most schools only have 1-3 skilled players, but the kids get around fine because the highest allowable score on a hole is double bogey.  There are some schools where all the kids can easily make nine doubles per match, and for them, a good day is a handful of bogeys or even a par or two.  It would never work without a maximum score.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, the middle schools in my area all have golf teams.  They play 9 hole matches at local "executive" courses (9 holes, usually par 32 or 33).  Most schools only have 1-3 skilled players, but the kids get around fine because the highest allowable score on a hole is double bogey.  There are some schools where all the kids can easily make nine doubles per match, and for them, a good day is a handful of bogeys or even a par or two.  It would never work without a maximum score.

+1
but again most of these are feeders to varsity and upper levels.


It would be great to have coed leagues with a social component, handicaps etc.
letting peole see golf can be fun as a hobby, exercise, heck maybe even a way to meet girls- etc.-not just as a way to mythical college scholarship (which are generally minimal or more about your income etc)


The upper end (.01% of player) is well served-as Jeff B. points out.


I just gotta win that lotto....

[Pat Burke]

Basically, our 36 hole club has junior clinics, a junior team, kids that play in all levels of the very good SoCal PGA junior tournaments, high school golf, and a few AJGA players.


Not sure the AJGA is doing anything but good (other than expensive) for the niche it provides.
High end, high cost, respected competitive golf for the best junior golfers.


If you desire to be a high level collegiate player, it is the best route to recruitment from the best college programs.  In no way, the only route.  Winning sectional and state high school events, local junior tournaments, or qualifying for some events will get attention as well. 
The AJGA is basically triple A for college golf, and like triple A,some make it, some don't.

[Bob Montle]

Mike,

Good points.
Well said.
I agree