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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2017, 09:45:35 AM »
There have been a number of times I thought that great terrain has been wasted because the architect did not get the routing correct. There have been more times when I thought that the architect got the most out of the course because the routing was brilliant. Ross routed a course as well as anyone. On very hilly terrain routing becomes most important. Get it wrong and the course becomes unplayable. Ballyhack is a good example of a routing on a difficult site. When I played Norman's course at Red Sky Ranch i thought his routing was terrific based on the severity of the site. A poor routing on a difficult site is more noticeable on a hilly sise than on a flat piece of terrain.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2017, 10:02:11 AM »
The point about a hilly site rings true.  I agree that Norman did a very good job at Red Sky and also think the same for Steel at Primland.  On the other hand, I was a bit disappointed with Kapalua Plantation.  Perhaps my expectations were too high and perhaps a 5 hour round impeded enjoying it, but I found several parts of it a slog. I am not knowledgeable enough to know if Coore and Crenshaw had any real other options given the severity of the site.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2017, 10:10:09 AM »
Interesting, the site at Primland must have been a nightmare when Steele first saw it. I loved the beauty of the course but after I finished playing it I felt that the routing used the land exceptionally well. After I played Kapalua i wondered if C&C could have routed the back nine a little differently.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2017, 10:14:28 AM »
Very glad to read that someone more knowledgeable than I am shares my reactions to Primland and Kapalua. Many thanks.

MCirba

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2017, 10:52:24 AM »
Other factors influencing changes to original routing are the various championships and the associated perceived need to provide a more stringent challenge.   This is usually done through the creation of new "back tees", which sometimes then create backwards or contrived walks as those tees over time become the new standards.   For example, here is another Joe Bausch find describing the changes to holes 10-13, but also the need for new back tees on several holes as well.   Interestingly, those tees are now the "men's" tees, as new back tees have since been built to continue to maintain relevancy for high-level championship golf.   

I should note that this type of thing doesn't only happen at US Open courses like Merion, but also at any course that begins to be perceived by the members or customers as too short to be challenging enough given modern technology.




« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:54:11 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2017, 01:42:40 PM »

Would be sort of interesting to see everyone's concise def of "good routing."  Sort of like the shot values thread a while back.


For me, the double weighted criteria would be 18 good holes.  While some might lament "missed holes" if the ones that are there play well, it is probably a good balance when the gca made the choice to use this land and not that.

I would also assess safety, length and balance, (perfect balance not required, but overall, good balance is better than a succession of long par 4 holes, consecutive 3 or 5 par holes, etc.)  the walking ability, and the ambiance or walk in the park test. 

For some clients, walking is not a big goal, for others, they have the landscape budget to overcome lack of ambiance.  So, I gather those might be judged somewhat differently from course to course, or maybe not.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2017, 03:20:57 PM »

Would be sort of interesting to see everyone's concise def of "good routing."  Sort of like the shot values thread a while back.


For me, the double weighted criteria would be 18 good holes.  While some might lament "missed holes" if the ones that are there play well, it is probably a good balance when the gca made the choice to use this land and not that.

I would also assess safety, length and balance, (perfect balance not required, but overall, good balance is better than a succession of long par 4 holes, consecutive 3 or 5 par holes, etc.)  the walking ability, and the ambiance or walk in the park test. 

For some clients, walking is not a big goal, for others, they have the landscape budget to overcome lack of ambiance.  So, I gather those might be judged somewhat differently from course to course, or maybe not.


It's hard to judge a routing unless you have played around with the topo enough to understand what other options might have existed.


I generally agree with your criteria for judging its success.  In the GOLF DIGEST tool box, "memorability" is often directly a function of routing, so it should get some points, too.  [I find it more important that the variety of holes created by the routing creates memorability, more so than somebody stuck a bunker in the middle of the 11th fairway to make that hole memorable.]


The one issue I might have is with your need for "balance," especially if you are talking about balance between the two nines.  Why is a routing that conforms to some arbitrary definition of "balance" better?  It's often more memorable if you go against the grain there, because the golfer can't guess so easily what sort of hole is coming next.  I'm not a big fan of the predictable.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2017, 04:52:14 PM »
Jeff - I can't (in a technical sense) judge the quality of a routing or determine if an architect has gotten the most out of a site. But in a few cases, I think I can perceive/understand -- and thus like or dislike -- the philosophical choices an architect has made in that context.

On a course I sometimes play there is a fairly large ridge/hill running through part of the property, with sections of it having gently sloping sides. At no point during the round does the architect have me hitting over it or playing along the top/ridge, and at no point does he have me golfing alongside of it (i.e. on a canted fairway).  The routing at one point works its way around the backside of the hill and, after a steep walk from green to tee, I get to hit down off the ridge and into a little valley fairway.

I don't think it takes an expert, in a case like this, to realize that the architect has made a philosophical choice, one that expresses his belief system about the average golfer and/or the intended target market -- and that belief is that golfers don't want canted fairways and don't want to hit blind shots over a hill and don't want a fairly narrow fairway that drops off on the sides.

From my perspective, that belief-routing choice is unfortunate; I'd like a chance to do play all those kinds of holes, at least on occasion. In that sense, I can't judge the quality of a routing or whether the architect has utilized to a maximum degree and to best effect the site's natural features; but I can determine that the architect and I have very different ideas about what constitutes good golf and about what the ideal use of the site's features would've been.

Over the years I've come to believe that many of us around here sometimes confuse those two aspects/approaches; we say "that routing isn't any good" when what we actually mean is "I didn't like that routing". Those are two very different things.

Peter           
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 06:03:21 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2017, 05:43:14 PM »
Sedgefield is a good example of routing a course well even when the corridors were predetermined by housing and roads. Built in 1926 roads were already in place so Ross was restricted in what he could do.







The par threes go in different directions and the long holes turned a little differently even when they go in similar directions.  I don't know how he could have done a better job with what he had.



Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2017, 06:27:37 PM »
Hope Valley (the subject of a couple great photo tours here) also was built in 1926.  I am not sure if the roads were already in place but suspect that they were.  The more I play it, the more I appreciate what Ross did with the routing.  Although there are a few too many holes with serious uphill approach shots, no hole is gimmicky, boring, or feels as if forced upon the site.  As noted in the photo tours, there is an awkward transition from the 14th green to the 15th tee, but it is a small price to pay.

Sean_A

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2017, 07:27:59 PM »
Jeff

I don't really have a clue if a better routing could have been achieved so I don't worry about that. I also don't worry about technical stuff like safety (though I think safety is an easy excuse to use) or drainage unless there is an obvious problem. For a recreational golfer such as myself I look for

1. quality green sites

2. use of natural features/terrain

3. quality of the walk including transitions between green/tee

4. views

5. incorporation of house

6. mix of holes

7. if being really picky at least two starting points, but prefer a longer (13-14 holes) and shorter loop (4-5 holes) rather than the 9-9 split...though this really is only applicable to private clubs

Ira...I thought Hope Valley was really well integrated with the housing estate...very impressive planning.
Ciao
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 07:31:07 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2017, 04:09:10 AM »
1. quality green sites
2. use of natural features/terrain
3. quality of the walk including transitions between green/tee
4. views
5. incorporation of house
6. mix of holes
7. if being really picky at least two starting points, but prefer a longer (13-14 holes) and shorter loop (4-5 holes) rather than the 9-9 split...though this really is only applicable to private clubs


Is this not where the difference between a good and a bad routing really stands out? Where the skill of the architect/constructor/maintainer really comes to the fore? A good routing will pretty much automatically provide the above mentioned factors and indeed others (like drainage, sunrise/sunset angles etc), a bad routing will not, or will do so to a far lessor degree?


Atb

Sean_A

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2017, 04:42:50 AM »
1. quality green sites
2. use of natural features/terrain
3. quality of the walk including transitions between green/tee
4. views
5. incorporation of house
6. mix of holes
7. if being really picky at least two starting points, but prefer a longer (13-14 holes) and shorter loop (4-5 holes) rather than the 9-9 split...though this really is only applicable to private clubs


Is this not where the difference between a good and a bad routing really stands out? Where the skill of the architect/constructor/maintainer really comes to the fore? A good routing will pretty much automatically provide the above mentioned factors and indeed others (like drainage, sunrise/sunset angles etc), a bad routing will not, or will do so to a far lessor degree?


Atb

ATB

I would never say a course was routed badly or really well because I never know the ins and outs of the project.  While I may be pleased with a routing, what I am really saying is that I don't know if there was a better routing not utilized...especially on treed sites.  However, to a large degree, like all things in architecture, it is subjective.  The idea of sacrificing a routing of 18 better holes for a routing which is a better walk using the house well is an example.  Its quite clear that brilliant archies disagree with this approach so there it is. Carts have a lot to answer for in terms of how modern architecture developed.  Its a pity this is the case, on the other hand many courses couldn't have been built without carts.  Which is best....I don't know...it just is.

Ciao   
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 04:51:14 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2017, 04:47:32 AM »
1. quality green sites
2. use of natural features/terrain
3. quality of the walk including transitions between green/tee
4. views
5. incorporation of house
6. mix of holes
7. if being really picky at least two starting points, but prefer a longer (13-14 holes) and shorter loop (4-5 holes) rather than the 9-9 split...though this really is only applicable to private clubs


Is this not where the difference between a good and a bad routing really stands out? Where the skill of the architect/constructor/maintainer really comes to the fore? A good routing will pretty much automatically provide the above mentioned factors and indeed others (like drainage, sunrise/sunset angles etc), a bad routing will not, or will do so to a far lessor degree?


Atb


I think what you and Sean are describing is simply what makes a good course.


The optimal routing plays a big part in making a good course but site restrictions which in turn force compromises in that routing play a much bigger part.


Hence there can be average courses that have a few holes that don't feel well routed but in fact provide the best option that was out there. Tight sites are the norm rather than the exception in GB. Not every site is a great one. Some are positively terrible.


Then there are big sites with great land movement where the architect has presented an excellent course but has perhaps missed a trick or two.


Question to all: In your opinion, which is the best routing? And would you be able to tell?


EDIT: Sean's latest post just above this one seems to be more in line with what I'm saying.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 04:49:16 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Thomas Dai

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2017, 05:23:38 AM »
Yikes! I thought this was what I was alluding to both above and in post 10 - in particular my comment that "would it be reasonable to suggest that routing an awkward site well highlights the real skill of the architect/constructor/maintainer?"
Atb[/size]

Sean_A

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2017, 05:24:28 AM »
I don't know which are best, but I like

Alwoodley's routing...really clever cross-over part at the bottle neck

Kington's routing because the hilly site was managed very well in terms of the walk

Worlington's is a thing of beauty even if the course is packed with 36 golfers!

Leckford Old is cool because of the variety packed into the site, the hills used in an oblique manner is fun

Stoneham & Muirfield because of the circle within circle layout

Addington uses the ravines quite well and other sharp terrain very well and in a way which is walkable

Edgbaston is a marvel on such a small property...two loops!  Really good mix of holes

Prestwick because of its unforgiving nature in finding all the trouble areas to use

Hope Valley because of how well it is integrated into the housing estate

Ciao

« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 05:26:10 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2017, 09:15:22 AM »
Like Sean, I do not pretend to have the knowledge, skill, vision, or imagination to analyze what other routing options the architect might have or should have considered.  But here are the courses where I enjoyed and appreciated the flow of the course and the use of the land:


Old White--not only did MacDonald/Raynor find a way to build the template holes on a mountain valley site, but a couple of the non-template holes (1 and 6 in particular) are a terrific incorporation of the hole into/onto the land.  I am curious as to how much earth they needed to move back in 1913 to get the templates to work.


Pine Needles--it seems as if a hand came from the sky to point out the best 18 green sites and then Ross took it from there. 


Lahinch--when I was young, I could remember every hole on every course even if I played it only once.  In the past few years, Lahinch is the only one for which I can do so.  I know that a number of architects worked on routing over the years, and it seems as if time and experience really worked to maximize the flow and variety of the course.


Washington Golf (Arlington, VA)--a very small and hilly site where Ross (with an assist from Flynn I think) designed a most enjoyable course.


Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2017, 09:23:52 AM »



Would be sort of interesting to see everyone's concise def of "good routing."  Sort of like the shot values thread a while back.


For me, the double weighted criteria would be 18 good holes.  While some might lament "missed holes" if the ones that are there play well, it is probably a good balance when the gca made the choice to use this land and not that.

I would also assess safety, length and balance, (perfect balance not required, but overall, good balance is better than a succession of long par 4 holes, consecutive 3 or 5 par holes, etc.)  the walking ability, and the ambiance or walk in the park test. 

For some clients, walking is not a big goal, for others, they have the landscape budget to overcome lack of ambiance.  So, I gather those might be judged somewhat differently from course to course, or maybe not.


It's hard to judge a routing unless you have played around with the topo enough to understand what other options might have existed.


I generally agree with your criteria for judging its success.  In the GOLF DIGEST tool box, "memorability" is often directly a function of routing, so it should get some points, too.  [I find it more important that the variety of holes created by the routing creates memorability, more so than somebody stuck a bunker in the middle of the 11th fairway to make that hole memorable.]


The one issue I might have is with your need for "balance," especially if you are talking about balance between the two nines.  Why is a routing that conforms to some arbitrary definition of "balance" better?  It's often more memorable if you go against the grain there, because the golfer can't guess so easily what sort of hole is coming next.  I'm not a big fan of the predictable.


TD,


Perhaps sequence would have been a better word choice.  I was not speaking of par balance between nines, although some folks do value that for handicap reasons.  When I wrote, "(perfect balance not required, but overall, good balance is better than a succession of long par 4 holes, consecutive 3 or 5 par holes, etc.)" that is what I meant by balance.


For that matter, I was always struck by, those Robert Bruce Harris disciples who went for "perfect par rotation" so strictly (where often 6 was a par 5, 7 a short par 4, and 8 the shorter of the two par 3's on the nine)  that they achieved different pars and hole lengths, but came out with three short iron approaches in a row.  Generally, despite par and length, I try to avoid 3 short shots in a row.


Its also like the old Pete Dye mantra of bend lefts alternating with bends right to create different shot patterns. If too many holes in a row bend the same way, one player may have a chance of getting too far up or down in a match too soon, whereas keeping the match going is generally more exciting.


In reviewing a few posts, things like "quality green sites" seem like the response of an architect or geek.  To golfers, it means less, I think, as long as the hole is good, such as the green site being enhanced with bunkers etc.  So, I lower that bar from quality green sites to "enhanceable" green sites.  Or, clever use of a bad green site. I doubt most would consider the volcano green sites great, but Ross made good use of them by putting them on short holes where an elevated green falling off all sides was a good choice.  It would be less good on a long par 4, so in many cases, feature design can cover for a decent, but not perfect routing.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Lewis

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2017, 08:56:56 PM »
Guys, very enjoyable thread.


Is another question can you mis-route a course and still have it be good?  Routing really has two elements - placement of the holes on particular parts of the property and order of the holes. 


When I played Ferry Point Park upon its opening I thought the "order" part of the routing didn't make sense, but since the holes were pretty much all created from scratch the first element, placement, probably wasn't in play.


The original routing of Quaker Ridge had 3 par 3s in 4 holes, I don't know how much that would have bothered me, but I sure wish I could see that 12th hole that is long gone for myself, replaced by a par 4.


Shinny is at the top of the amazing routings list for sure, yet the 9s were reversed early on.  So, I guess I'd say most of us are probably much more concerned with placement than order. 


If the next great course was par 33 on front and 38 on the back but each golf hole was thoughtful, strategic and beautiful, would anybody here complain?


Isn't one of Rees Jones' shortcomings visible when every course he does is 36/36/72...like somehow magically the land spoke to him and asked for that?








Mike Bodo

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2017, 10:21:25 PM »
I don't envy any of you architects, because all of you are hand-cuffed to a certain extent by the developer. For starters, you're confined to laying out holes based on where the clubhouse, parking lot and other facilities (tennis courts, swimming pool, driving range practice, putting green, snack shop, etc.) may or will be. Second, four holes - 1 and 9 and 10 and 18 - need to start/end near the clubhouse. This really leaves only 14 holes where you have freedom to design and route as you see fit. I imagine it's for this reason that holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 are rarely the best on any course, as architects are limited to what they can take advantage of feature-wise due to space constraints. That said, the best architects are those that can route a terrific course while making best use of the topographical features the parcel of land they have to work with has to offer despite these deficiencies. If you could eliminate having the two nine's of a golf course begin/end at the same point or place, imagine the type of unconstrained courses we could have?
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2017, 06:30:20 AM »
May be coincidence or confirmation of Mike's point, but three of the four courses in my post above about well routed courses do not have #9 returning to the clubhouse.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2017, 04:02:03 PM »

Ira,


Don't feel bad for us!


Part of the creative mindset is to turn problems into assets.  I doubt many professional golf architects just throw up their hands if given a limitation like returning nines.  Factoring each into the design helps make each one unique.  Necessity is the mother of invention, and all that.


And, designers aren't straight line thinkers, as in, this is out, we can only go one way with this. By nature, we tinker with ideas, combining and recombining until we get something good.  We rarely stop to compare how it might have been otherwise, because, what's the point?


And, the knee bone connected to the thigh bone, so its never really a 4/14 split on total freedom.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

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Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2017, 05:09:06 PM »
Jeff, the part of your jobs that I do not envy at all is dealing with developers and/or greens committees.  I used to practice law so I know the challenges of a client service business.   

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is routing the most Important thing to get right?
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2017, 06:18:09 PM »

Well, then yes, you can feel sorry for us! ;D


I have always felt this job would be much easier without clients........ ::)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach