[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Thanks for that recap and explanation of the routing process.    I thought you had done more than a few and I seem to recall one at Beechtree, sadly NLE.

I'd forgotten about the 12th at Beechtree!

[Kirk Gill]

This makes me think of the 1st at Welshpool, from a recent course tour by Sean_A. This one is pretty scary, especially on the second shot !


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63739.msg1518730.html#msg1518730

[D_Malley]

one hole that came to mind for me was:
#5 merion west

[Guy Nicholson]

The eighth hole at Highlands Links, cleverly named "Caber's Toss" in reference to the old Scottish highland game. The hole needs a lot of tree removal but I love it all the same. It's not a difficult hole but an interesting one -- the running approach down the hill allows par to be made many different ways.


https://vimeo.com/104415307
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caber_toss

[Joe Bausch]

Beechtree #12:



And all the rest of the Beechtree photo album here:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Beechtree/index.html

[MCirba]

D_Malley,

Great one.   There is close to 70 feet of elevation change from tee to landing area on the 5th at Merion West.    That may be the most so far.

[corey miller]

As well as an awful looking cart path...

[Kalen Braley]

Here are a couple of counter points....


1)  These kind of holes are hell on seniors, many lady players, the kids and some types of high cappers....(I suppose if tees that are significantly more forward are provided this could help mitigate.
2)  From a pace of play perspective, a ball that is offline can often take far longer to find given the lack of sight and perspective of where it landed.

[Carl Rogers]

At Beechtree, that was hole no. 12 and it was named "Up and Over".
Dormie no. 6 & no. 10 could be described as up and over, both par 5's.

[Sven Nilsen]

17 at OFCC North.


The up and over doesn't happen until the approach shot, but the green definitely runs away.  A really cool Willie Park hole.

[Kyle Harris]

Forgot about a few from one of my favorites:

The splendid 8th at Mountain Lake.
The difficult 12th at Mountain Lake.

[corey miller]

Kalen

I have heard more than a few times, on large hills, that the tee needs to be moved back, farther away from the hill.

[Kalen Braley]

Corey,


I think that will just add to the misery.  Now instead of having 1 shot that may get up and over, thier tee ball is going to land on the hillside, and then they'll have a second shot of up and over from a now dfficult uphill lie stance.


I think the better solution would be to move the senior/kids tee to the top, or close to the top of the hill.  A course I used to play a lot in Spokane, WA had this.  It worked very well for them while the men had to hit from the bottom of the hill up to the flat part.

[John Sabino]

A great question Mike. I would think the 18th at Yale is the most pronounced example of the genre. Don't know what the elevation changes is from the tee/green to the top of the hill, but it's pretty daunting. I wonder if these were more a function of early courses not having the earth moving equipment to flatten out hills, thus you don't see a lot of them anymore. Or, the perceived preference that golfers don't like blind shots?

[Sven Nilsen]

Are we really talking about holes where the approach is from a downhill lie to a green that runs away?  In that case, my nomination doesn't apply, nor to my recollection does the 18th at Yale.

[MCirba]

Corey,


I think that will just add to the misery.  Now instead of having 1 shot that may get up and over, thier tee ball is going to land on the hillside, and then they'll have a second shot of up and over from a now dfficult uphill lie stance.


I think the better solution would be to move the senior/kids tee to the top, or close to the top of the hill.  A course I used to play a lot in Spokane, WA had this.  It worked very well for them while the men had to hit from the bottom of the hill up to the flat part.

I like this solution when it's feasible, Kalen.   

Now, of the examples mentioned to date I'm curious how many have adapted this approach?   I would bet not many of the vintage courses have.

[MCirba]

Are we really talking about holes where the approach is from a downhill lie to a green that runs away?  In that case, my nomination doesn't apply, nor to my recollection does the 18th at Yale.

Sven,

Ideally, but there are always adaptations to any genre and the general theme here is clearing a significant rise with the tee shot to a blind landing area and then playing back down the other side.   Holes that use the existing downward landform extended through the green get extra brownie points on my scale but I'm curious about holes that don't, as well.    Thanks!

[Sven Nilsen]

Are we really talking about holes where the approach is from a downhill lie to a green that runs away?  In that case, my nomination doesn't apply, nor to my recollection does the 18th at Yale.

Sven,

Ideally, but there are always adaptations to any genre and the general theme here is clearing a significant rise with the tee shot to a blind landing area and then playing back down the other side.   Holes that use the existing downward landform extended through the green get extra brownie points on my scale but I'm curious about holes that don't, as well.    Thanks!

In that case, throw 16 at OFCC South on the list.  You drive straight up the hill where nowadays drive tend to carry to the downslope on the other side.  You're left with a short pitch to a green with a severe false front (with a very cool squared off front edge), a holdable middle portion and a back edge that encourages balls to run into the rough.


Still a pretty cool hole these days, but would have been even better when built when the shot required was a longer lower shot that might have to run up the face of the false front.

[Jim Nugent]

From pictures, looks like 15 at ANGC mostly fits the bill, except the green does not fall away.  If the green fell away, the hole would be nearly impossible. 

I thought one of Rock Creek's holes -- a longish par 4 -- features a blind tee shot, and a fairway that tumbles down to the green below.  The picture I recall, from behind the green, looked wild and lots of people raved about the hole. 

[corey miller]

Not a par 5 but may we add #17 Yale to the list? Ran's review mentions that hill having been lowered somewhere along the way.

My problem with Kalens solution (I will assume not a problem on a par 5? ) is that the player then has a very long walk to the next tee.  Does someone want to walk 150 yards up a large hill to play the next shot? 

Greenwich CC AKA "Royal Greenwich" has the most intimidating tee shot I have seen on #11.  From the back tee this shot "looks" and may even play easier.

[MCirba]

My problem with Kalens solution (I will assume not a problem on a par 5? ) is that the player then has a very long walk to the next tee.  Does someone want to walk 150 yards up a large hill to play the next shot? 

Greenwich CC AKA "Royal Greenwich" has the most intimidating tee shot I have seen on #11.  From the back tee this shot "looks" and may even play easier.

Corey,

Wouldn't they have to walk the uphill 150 or so yards anyway?   I know my wife would rather be playing her tee shot from the precipice than from the valley, and then faced with Kalen's theorized "second shot at the sky" scenario. 

Interesting you mentioned that number.   I was just looking at the current 17 green to 18 tee walk at Cobb's Creek which rises 60 feet in 150 yards.   Today everyone schleps directly up that hill, which attacks the hill at the most direct angle.

That scenario was/is due to the fact that when the course was originally built the architects were prohibited by the city park commission from removing trees, so their plans for something a bit more creative were thwarted, so now everyone has to walk up to the top of the hill rather than playing up there.

Interestingly, the path to the original 18th tee (since moved a bit when the Karakung course was extended in the late 30s) took a more circuitous path to navigate the hill and still exists to this day though most don't know about it.   Only a few of us golf course archeologists are in the know. 

[corey miller]

Sorry I was not more clear Mike.  Depending on the length of the hole perhaps the problem is largely alleviated with a Par 5 where playing from the incline over the hill on shot two may be acceptable.

As for walking up to a tee on the rise.  I just think the majority of golf walking should be between shots rather than between holes.  I

If we consider the daunting land form a "hazard", I would offer that not many classic era courses had players walking over/through a hazard rather than playing through it. 

The slippery slope of course is rather than play over the "hazard" from the prior green, and rather than walk to the top of the "hazard".  Why not just bulldoze the "hazard"? 

Can't this just be a par 4.5 hole?

[Ian Galbraith]

The 3rd at Machrihanish falls into this category. Cresting the hill to see where your drive has finished and trying to figure out what kind of shot you have to manufacture for your second is a treat. Wish I'd taken a picture of the green which sits in a hollow at the foot of the hill.

[MCirba]

Sorry I was not more clear Mike.  Depending on the length of the hole perhaps the problem is largely alleviated with a Par 5 where playing from the incline over the hill on shot two may be acceptable.

As for walking up to a tee on the rise.  I just think the majority of golf walking should be between shots rather than between holes.  I

If we consider the daunting land form a "hazard", I would offer that not many classic era courses had players walking over/through a hazard rather than playing through it. 

The slippery slope of course is rather than play over the "hazard" from the prior green, and rather than walk to the top of the "hazard".  Why not just bulldoze the "hazard"? 

Can't this just be a par 4.5 hole?

Corey,

Agree with all of your points.   Placing forward tees is always a bit tricky but never more so than when a steep landform needs to be navigated.     You might end up with something like a 600 yard par five from the tips that is then a 380 yard par five?  from the front tees, which I'm not morally opposed to but some might consider that blasphemous.

Regarding bulldozing, I always hate to see that but some re-grading sometimes might help in a situation like this I'd think, not necessarily to lower the overall climb so much but perhaps to make it less steep in places for both walking and playability. 

Do you have any pics of the 11th tee shot at The Royal CC of Greenwich?   

[Joe Bausch]

The difficult 12th at Mountain Lake.

And recently I've re-processed my entire Mountain Lake photo album and it is much better now:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/MountainLake/

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