Dismal River sold (according to Ron Whitten)

[BCowan]

I personally do not care for the trend of once private clubs going semi-private for the reasons that have been expressed here and other threads. To me, if you can no longer financially afford to remain private then go public or sell. To straddle the fence by going semi-private does neither the remaining members or the retail golfer any good in the long-run and there is always animosity between the two groups of golfers - mainly because the remaining members are pissed to have to share their once exclusive course with the public.


How many once private clubs that are now semi-private actually go back to being private clubs again once they've taken the plunge? Not many, I promise you. If DRC can't maintain a certain quota of members to remain private then they should go public - plain and simple. Don't mess around with going semi-private, as rarely do I see it work in the long run. It currently works at a course like Belvedere because you have a good percentage of members over 60 that are carrying it. Once they're dead and gone you will either have to go completely public or sell, as rest-assured the club is not attracting many if any young members simply because it's a transient crowd that flocks to Charlevoix each summer and whose going to join a club when you're there but a few weeks out of the year?

    I disagree with you.  First off Belvedere at some point maybe 15-30 years ago had an initiation, if they don't have one now.  I believe the public is NOT allowed in the clubhouse, which is cool by me.  I don't know if you are correct that the average age of Belvedere's member is 60, I met one in his 40's the day I played but don't have enough knowledge of the place.  I for one plan on joining Belvedere in the future.  I personally believe in supporting courses with great ethos and culture.  If you are going to go Semi, you lower the yearly fees for the committed golfer, block off 2-4 hours worth of tee times and you charge high rates for the uncommitted.  Ala Mid Pines, that went from resort only to Semi private blocked times/resort.  Which enabled them to pay for their yearly maint and give them backing to restore their courses enabling them to charge the Uncommitted more money.  People spend their summers up there in N Michigan.  Met a guy from Tennessee that was a Lookout Mtn member at the halfway house.  I see many Semi Privates doing really well, but I love that Belvedere blocks out times for members creating a feeling of a totally private club.   The reason why Belvedere went public is all the competition up in Northern Michigan.  Belvedere is renovating it's course right now and only going to get better.  Crystal Downs allows 2 groups a day before and after Memorial/Labor day.  A remote course needs members and it needs high paying public play in non busy times to be sustainable for decades-centuries IMO.  Clubs can repay founding members by giving them 1-10 years free guest fees or something of that nature.  If one is fortunate enough to be a founding member, they should be doing it for the love of the game.  I don't know DR situation, but I do know that this Black and White only outlook, as in Public only or private only is hogwash.  Pasa that Kalen mentioned is another great example.  I'm sure the public helps pay their high water costs. 

[Mike Bodo]

I disagree with you.  First off Belvedere at some point maybe 15-30 years ago had an initiation, if they don't have one now.  I believe the public is NOT allowed in the clubhouse, which is cool by me.  I don't know if you are correct that the average age of Belvedere's member is 60, I met one in his 40's the day I played but don't have enough knowledge of the place.  I for one plan on joining Belvedere in the future.  I personally believe in supporting courses with great ethos and culture.  If you are going to go Semi, you lower the yearly fees for the committed golfer, block off 2-4 hours worth of tee times and you charge high rates for the uncommitted.  Ala Mid Pines, that went from resort only to Semi private blocked times/resort.  Which enabled them to pay for their yearly maint and give them backing to restore their courses enabling them to charge the Uncommitted more money.  People spend their summers up there in N Michigan.  Met a guy from Tennessee that was a Lookout Mtn member at the halfway house.  I see many Semi Privates doing really well, but I love that Belvedere blocks out times for members creating a feeling of a totally private club.   The reason why Belvedere went public is all the competition up in Northern Michigan.  Belvedere is renovating it's course right now and only going to get better.  Crystal Downs allows 2 groups a day before and after Memorial/Labor day.  A remote course needs members and it needs high paying public play in non busy times to be sustainable for decades-centuries IMO.  Clubs can repay founding members by giving them 1-10 years free guest fees or something of that nature.  If one is fortunate enough to be a founding member, they should be doing it for the love of the game.  I don't know DR situation, but I do know that this Black and White only outlook, as in Public only or private only is hogwash.  Pasa that Kalen mentioned is another great example.  I'm sure the public helps pay their high water costs.

You can disagree with me all you want. My boss owns a summer home in Charlevoix, plays Belvedere several times a year now that it's semi-private and he'll be the first to agree with me regarding the status of the current membership. The money being poured into the course may be the result of a few rich benefactors that are hoping to make a last ditch effort to return the course to it's former glory. Don't get me wrong, Belvedere is a great course as it is and I want to see it thrive, but in many ways it is symptomatic of the plague occurring to many Northern Michigan golf courses and that's declining play. I can give you a laundry list of courses up there are that are struggling to make it currently. Crystal Downs is one of the few clubs in that part of the state bucking the trend, but much of that has to due with it's history and continued high ranking in the esteemed golf publications. Belvedere no longer has that going for them.


To better support my case, Polo Fields of Ann Arbor purchased the Washtenaw County Country Club several years ago and continued running it as a private club for about three or four years. At the time, WCCC members could play the Polo Fields Ann Arbor (West) and visa versa as part of the new membership plan. Play at what eventually became Polo Fields East declined to the point that they had to go semi-private three years ago and this past year they went 100% public and rebranded the course Washtenaw Golf Club.


The travails that befell WCCC are no different than many once prominent private clubs that are now semi-private, public or just plain gone (see Ann Arbor Country Club for reference). This is due in large part to the inability of private clubs to attract young members with families to make up for the loss of older members. Once older members die off and or rounds played decline, there's not enough people coming up through the ranks behind them to sustain a club as a private entity. Can Belvedere survive as a semi-private club? I think for a period of time until the baby boomers that are still active members are no longer around. Eventually it will be 100% public. That's simply the trend and I suspect Crystal Downs will witness a similar fate.

[Bill_McBride]

Peter,


I feel like my only posts lately are continuing a conversation you start with my own thoughts...maybe we ought to meet halfway, drink a little, and answer all the questions?


I'll bring TEP and a case of red wine...


That said...as long as the golf remains the primary attraction, the rest would do well to add a day or two for many people's trip...but the nickles and dimes they'll pick up with open play wouldn't pay for one disgruntled member.


Not saying it's an answer, just that exclusivity needs to be real or else no one will pay for it.

+1-- Everybody assumes non-member money is gravy. It is--until it costs you a member. The nickles and dimes are never as important as the dues line.


And my feelings are hurt I didn't rate an invite. I thought TEP bestowed Honorary Philadelphian on me. I got a piece of paper and everything.

The UK model of a private club offering some public tee times every week is very successful there.  Clubs are profitable, the members understand both the value and schedule of visitors.

[BCowan]

Mike,

   Actually 60 isn't bad average age for a 2nd course membership and vacation club.  I consider 55-65 to be retirement age and when someone may spend their summers up in N michigan.  U can't compare local clubs to vaca clubs.

Belvedere has public golf money coming in and they seem to be spending it wisely, I still think they need to restructure their membership model.  I don't know if Belvedere can maintain a membership, but either of us know enough to say.  Whether it does or not, it should still remain open to the public.  I think True North and Bay Harbor hurt Belvedere, put there are so many private summer destination options out there.  Belvedere drew folks from St Louis and I was surprised to learn how few Detroiters were members.       

That's simply the trend and I suspect Crystal Downs will witness a similar fate        

[Tom_Doak]

The business model in the Sand Hills is 100% different than the Detroit / Ann Arbor area, or northern Michigan, which are also different than each other.


You can bet against Crystal Downs if you want, Ben.  Tell you what - you can pay my dues there until it changes over, and then I'll pay for your greens fees from then on.  Deal ?

[BCowan]

Tom,


I'm not betting against CD, Mike is. Please read before u post.  I'm well aware of the differences between A2, DET, and N MI.

[Mike_Trenham]

The economics of places like DR is based on heads in beds, not rounds played.  If you are allowed to play you should stay the night and have a steak instead of chicken wings.

[Tim Martin]

I disagree with you.  First off Belvedere at some point maybe 15-30 years ago had an initiation, if they don't have one now.  I believe the public is NOT allowed in the clubhouse, which is cool by me.  I don't know if you are correct that the average age of Belvedere's member is 60, I met one in his 40's the day I played but don't have enough knowledge of the place.  I for one plan on joining Belvedere in the future.  I personally believe in supporting courses with great ethos and culture.  If you are going to go Semi, you lower the yearly fees for the committed golfer, block off 2-4 hours worth of tee times and you charge high rates for the uncommitted.  Ala Mid Pines, that went from resort only to Semi private blocked times/resort.  Which enabled them to pay for their yearly maint and give them backing to restore their courses enabling them to charge the Uncommitted more money.  People spend their summers up there in N Michigan.  Met a guy from Tennessee that was a Lookout Mtn member at the halfway house.  I see many Semi Privates doing really well, but I love that Belvedere blocks out times for members creating a feeling of a totally private club.   The reason why Belvedere went public is all the competition up in Northern Michigan.  Belvedere is renovating it's course right now and only going to get better.  Crystal Downs allows 2 groups a day before and after Memorial/Labor day.  A remote course needs members and it needs high paying public play in non busy times to be sustainable for decades-centuries IMO.  Clubs can repay founding members by giving them 1-10 years free guest fees or something of that nature.  If one is fortunate enough to be a founding member, they should be doing it for the love of the game.  I don't know DR situation, but I do know that this Black and White only outlook, as in Public only or private only is hogwash.  Pasa that Kalen mentioned is another great example.  I'm sure the public helps pay their high water costs.

You can disagree with me all you want. My boss owns a summer home in Charlevoix, plays Belvedere several times a year now that it's semi-private and he'll be the first to agree with me regarding the status of the current membership. The money being poured into the course may be the result of a few rich benefactors that are hoping to make a last ditch effort to return the course to it's former glory. Don't get me wrong, Belvedere is a great course as it is and I want to see it thrive, but in many ways it is symptomatic of the plague occurring to many Northern Michigan golf courses and that's declining play. I can give you a laundry list of courses up there are that are struggling to make it currently. Crystal Downs is one of the few clubs in that part of the state bucking the trend, but much of that has to due with it's history and continued high ranking in the esteemed golf publications. Belvedere no longer has that going for them.


To better support my case, Polo Fields of Ann Arbor purchased the Washtenaw County Country Club several years ago and continued running it as a private club for about three or four years. At the time, WCCC members could play the Polo Fields Ann Arbor (West) and visa versa as part of the new membership plan. Play at what eventually became Polo Fields East declined to the point that they had to go semi-private three years ago and this past year they went 100% public and rebranded the course Washtenaw Golf Club.


The travails that befell WCCC are no different than many once prominent private clubs that are now semi-private, public or just plain gone (see Ann Arbor Country Club for reference). This is due in large part to the inability of private clubs to attract young members with families to make up for the loss of older members. Once older members die off and or rounds played decline, there's not enough people coming up through the ranks behind them to sustain a club as a private entity. Can Belvedere survive as a semi-private club? I think for a period of time until the baby boomers that are still active members are no longer around. Eventually it will be 100% public. That's simply the trend and I suspect Crystal Downs will witness a similar fate.

I agree with Ben and Tom in that no way is Crystal Downs going to be anything other than private.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,


Do you have a sense for the expense side at U.K. clubs?

Jim,


While I don't know exact figures, I do know the maintenance expense is significantly less.


And while I also know they have several built in advantages like a cool and wet climate, I've also heard many haven't given in to the silly arms race of chasing Augusta like conditions. I suspect they also do far less fertilizing, mowing, flower bedding, pool building, massive clubhouse erecting, <insert extra here>... that many American courses have/feel they need.


So at the end of the day, it seems to come down to one simple thing:  What is wanted.


An exorbitant initiation and dues for all the extras??....or something more basic with occasional outside play, a simple setup, and greens that stimp at 8.

[Mike Bodo]

The business model in the Sand Hills is 100% different than the Detroit / Ann Arbor area, or northern Michigan, which are also different than each other.


You can bet against Crystal Downs if you want, Ben.  Tell you what - you can pay my dues there until it changes over, and then I'll pay for your greens fees from then on.  Deal ?

If there is a Northern Michigan semi-private club that can buck the trend and potentially go back to being 100% private it's Crystal Downs. There's been a big enough influx of money and well-to-do individuals who have made the Traverse City area a year-round residence the past decade or so where they could potentially attract enough new members to have a full-fledged private club. Although the plethora of excellent public courses there makes this a tougher challenge, it's certainly doable. If any semi-private club up there can pull it off, it's Crystal.

[Mike Bodo]

Tom,


I'm not betting against CD, Mike is. Please read before u post.  I'm well aware of the differences between A2, DET, and N MI.

I'm not betting against Crystal, but I wouldn't be surprised if in the next decade it went 100% public either. A lot depends on how aggressive they are in attracting new members.

[BCowan]

I swear Ran is playing a prank on us.  The Downs has like a 10 year wait list.  It would take a great depression

[Ryan Taylor]

This thread has turned into an abomination and has many inaccuracies.

[Mike Bodo]

So at the end of the day, it seems to come down to one simple thing:  What is wanted.


An exorbitant initiation and dues for all the extras??....or something more basic with occasional outside play, a simple setup, and greens that stimp at 8.

At my club there is no initiation fee for new members, only annual fees and monthly dues. We also give incentives to anyone 40 and under to join, which has helped boost our membership by bringing in families with young children. Once they get a taste of club life and enjoy it, they tend to become long-term members even after their annual membership fee and dues go up when the primary member turns 41.

[Mike Bodo]

I swear Ran is playing a prank on us.  The Downs has like a 10 year wait list.  It would take a great depression

If Crystal has a 10 yr. wait list for new members then why go semi-private or did I mis-read that? That's a sign of a very healthy club.

[Mike Bodo]

This thread has turned into an abomination and has many inaccuracies.

You're right. Sorry about that. The Michigan contingent here (myself included) kind of hijacked the thread and morphed it into a local issue about the trend of once private clubs in MI going semi-private and so forth. I blame Ben for that (j/k). 


"And now, back to your originally scheduled program."

[Brian Finn]

I swear Ran is playing a prank on us.  The Downs has like a 10 year wait list.  It would take a great depression

If Crystal has a 10 yr. wait list for new members then why go semi-private or did I mis-read that? That's a sign of a very healthy club.

You must have misunderstood - Crystal Downs is definitely private and highly unlikely to change.

[Mike Bodo]

I swear Ran is playing a prank on us.  The Downs has like a 10 year wait list.  It would take a great depression

If Crystal has a 10 yr. wait list for new members then why go semi-private or did I mis-read that? That's a sign of a very healthy club.

You must have misunderstood - Crystal Downs is definitely private and highly unlikely to change.

My apologies. As I thought someone earlier in the thread mentioned it had gone semi-private or that non-members could get on the course.

[Mark Saltzman]

I swear Ran is playing a prank on us.  The Downs has like a 10 year wait list.  It would take a great depression

If Crystal has a 10 yr. wait list for new members then why go semi-private or did I mis-read that? That's a sign of a very healthy club.

You must have misunderstood - Crystal Downs is definitely private and highly unlikely to change.

My apologies. As I thought someone earlier in the thread mentioned it had gone semi-private or that non-members could get on the course.

Being semi-private and allowing limited unaccompanied play in shoulder seasons are different things.