[TEPaul]

TomD:

You're absolutely right about the front secton on The Creek's biarritz being fairway until the 1990s. My mistake----that fellow at The Creek didn't tell me he remembered mowing it as greenspace in the 1960s, he told me he remembered mowing it as fairway in the 1960s. I remember it as fairway in the early 1950s because that hole happens to be the one I hit my first shot on a golf course.

Bill Brightly:

You're absolutely right about Yale's front section being fairway originally. I remember now that Tony Piopi fiound that early article recently and that was a most interesting and important find. I guess it means there were no Macdonald/Raynor biarritzes that had greenspace on their front sections originally.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Hartford Courant article from Aug. 16, 1925 on the construction of the Yale course reads: “The ninth hole is over the northwestern end of the Griest pond and has its original on the Biarritz course in France.
   “The green proper is behind a deep groove in the approach which is of about the same area as the green. The approach is bunkered heavily on the right and left and the fairway is the lake. This hole is one of the most interesting of the course and is deceptive because of the full water play, although the hole is not a long one.”

[Jim Nugent]

I guess it means there were no Macdonald/Raynor biarritzes that had greenspace on their front sections originally.

I'd really like to know when and why those front sections turned into greens.  Who did this first, and why did so many others follow? 

Never having played Yale, it surprises me that you can run balls through the swale.  I would have thought the elevated tee would rule out such a shot. 

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I think the point missing in this discussion is that when these holes were built, ball flight was much lower especially coming off clubs such as 2-irons, plus, I would argue, the hole calls for a draw. Raynor always tries to reveal the best player by rewarding a variety of shots throughout his courses. I can easily see balls running through the Yale Swale when mowed at fair green height, just as balls now run through the swale before the green at Fishers Island which is mowed at collar height on a severely uphill hole. It has to be a crack shot to do it, however, since this is a difficult par-3.

Anthony

[Tim Gerrish]

I'm thinking the courses started mowing the front plateaus as green sometime after they installed their fairway and approach irrigation systems.  1960s???  Before then the approaches were firm and fast from not being irrigated and one could play that shot. Once the approaches were watered the ball stopped short more often.

While the front pin positions are not as exciting nor demanding as the rear pin positions, they still require distance control to not be in the swale, over the swale or short in the approach.  They are interesting just for the variety sake.

[Bill Brightly]

I'll agree that the shot to the front section of Yale is challenging because of the water, and I'll reserve judgement on Old Mac until I see it (I hear it will play into a tough cross wind) but generally playing to the front section of a Biarritz is about as exciting as seeing just the back of Halle Berry's head. There is nothing wrong with the back of her head, but there is SO much more to enjoy...

[TEPaul]

The "Biarritz shot" was the first shot I was "taught" in golf as a kid. The Old Scottish teaching pro at Piping Rock (Spence) took a bunch of us kids out to the 9th at Piping (Biarritz) and showed us how to hit a really low 4 wood onto the front section and run in into and up out of the swale with the right amount of "weight". Then he took us all over to the redan (#3) and showed us the "redan shot" by playing it off the fairway "kicker" on the right so it would take the slope left, filter onto the green surface and disappear down and away to the flag. As a kid when I got into that huge redan bunker there was no way I could get it up high enough onto the green. That bunker fact must have been 15 plus feet high.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Hendren,

So much of the play of a Biarritz is determined by the elevation differential between the tee and the green.

Holes with tees at or below green level play completely different from holes with tees elevated well above the green.

Yale is a perfect example of the latter.
Mountain Lake might be a perfect example of the former, with The Knoll somewhere in between.

With # 9 at Yale and similar configurations, running the ball is a diminished, if not a non-existant option, given the absence of wind.

On the other hand, at Mountain Lake, running the ball may be the option of choice.

One also has to examine Biarritz holes in the context of playing conditions at or around the time they were created.

Lush, soft conditions were usually absent, unless Mother Nature intervened.

Hence, running the ball was a typical, if not the prefered method of play.

I can't imagine carries of 240 from tees that matched green elevations.

One also has to remember that it wasn't until the 50's and 60's that automated irrigation systems started to take hold, hence playing conditions in the summer usually produced firm, fast, brown fairways that effectively produced similar or better results than fronts mowed to green height today.

I happen to favor mowing the entire "U" surface to green height for modern play.

I think it allows for greater diversity in play, and, I think it presents some unique shots should a ball go long or to the flanks.

It's rare that a ball will be hole high when the hole is cut on the back tier, thus, holes cut on the front tier will introduce the golfer to unique recovery situations and unique putting situations.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's about 215 to the back hole location at Old Macdonald, but since the green is 78 yards long, it's only 181 to the middle.  I guarantee you there are lots of days when it will be better to land in the front part of the green there. 

In fact, I think the hole location in the front of the green is a really good one ... short, but hard to hold on and not go into the swale. 

But, Mr. Keiser does not like the putt from the swale back up toward the front, so he's been lobbying not to use front hole locations there.

Tom Doak,

You know that I regard Mike Keiser as a visionary when it comes to golf courses and golf resorts, but, I think he's missing the boat on this one.

It's a rare day when a golfer hit's their tee shot hole high to a hole location on the back tier, thus flanking recovery options are almost never an option.  Having the front tier mowed to green would present that situation to the golfer.
Having the front tier location would challenge a golfer who overclubbed or skulled his tee shot long.

There's something quite unique about having to putt through the trough, from one tier to another, or, from the bottom of the trough to an upper hole location.

The benefit of mowing the front tier to green height is the mulitple options of play it allows for.

Now, I'm fully aware that Mike Keiser makes the ultimate call, but, I'd like to know his reasons for keeping the front tier as fairway.

In addition, what's the elevation differential between the tee,  front tier, bottom of the trough and the rear tier ?

Thanks

[Chip Gaskins]

A few pics from some of the better versions....

Creek Club


Blue Mound (fairway height front pad)


Shoreacres (picture taken from back of green looking forward)


Chicago Golf (fairway height front pad)


Piping Rock (fairway height front pad)
Wouldn't allow pictures

St. Louis (only front pin I have  played)


Black Creek (Brian Silva in Chattanooga)


And the best....cart path Biarritz at Shoreacres

[Bill Brightly]

Can't have all these Biarritz pictires without Yale's...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Your photo of Yale's Biarritz illustrates my point about elevation changes effecting shot selection.

I can't see a golfer attempting to hit a long iron stinger for the purpose of landing on the front tier and having his ball roll through the trough to the upper tier.  The water hazard gets the golfer's attention and carrying it becomes his first and primary objective.
The golfer isn't going to craft esoteric shots that allow for the ball to land on the front tier with a low trajectory so that it can reach the back tier.

On the other hand, that can and does happen at Mountain Lake.

While it may happen at The Creek, the trough feature at The Creek is so benign that it's almost not a genuine trough.

Reaching hole locations on the back tier presents a frightening challenge at holes like # 9 at Yale and # 13 at The Knoll, for if the golfer errs, left, right or long, worse than bogies may await him.

[Joel_Stewart]

I played this Fazio biarritz a few weeks ago at Martis Camp.  Its actually a par 4.

[Sean_A]

This is an interesting thread, but what is most interesting to me is not if or when the front parts of Bs were cut as green, but the idea that the flag should never be anywhere but the back pad.  Totally whacked thinking if variety has any merit, but interesting.


My one and only one B is Yeamans Hall.  I can't undertand all the fuss...not a great par 3 for me.  I actually think the hole would be far better if it was a shortish par 4...where prime position had to be earned rather than gifted.  The recovery shots would be incredibly fun.



Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

This is an interesting thread, but what is most interesting to me is not if or when the front parts of Bs were cut as green, but the idea that the flag should never be anywhere but the back pad.  Totally whacked thinking if variety has any merit, but interesting.

If you take CBM at his word in describing the template, the back pad was the entirety of the green.  His interest was in testing the long approach, asking the player to hit a shot that would bounce and roll the distance required to finish on "the green."  The idea of hitting a long straight shot seems best suited for a par 3, where the teeing ground is set.  On a long par 4, the odds are the player will be hitting their approach from straight on are slight, and if you turn the approach to the green into a shorter shot, you are looking at a different type of shot required.


The variety in CBM's templates was in the types of shots required throughout the round, with the Biarritz demanding one particular kind.  This hole may not have had a ton of variety in pin placements, but it did present a type of shot that you were not necessarily being asked to hit anywhere else on the course.

[Ira Fishman]

The Courses by Country tour of Old White at the Greenbrier has terrific pictures of #3 including one with the pin at a back left location where the bunker then presents an additional challenge.  The couple of times I played there, they did not use that location, but I hope that they keep the green shape post-flood restoration so that I might have the opportunity in the future. 

[Sean_A]

Sven

I think the long wood play to a tight target was very much a feature of classic design...some of those courses played incredibly long.  Okay, maybe only one or a few targets were raised in a similar manner to the B, but that is a minor consideration to hitting a long wood quite accurarately no matter the styele of green. In any case, my idea was that the concept might work better for a short 4, not a long 4.  The temptation factor with smash mouth golf is hard to over-come even though experts know that strategy can lead to bogeys.  Just watch the pros play Riviera's 10th. 

But my point was not about what Raynor thought, it is about what folks on this thread wrote. The idea that at least half the green is off limits to hole locations even though the green can clearly used as such seems short-sighted. 

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

Sean:


There are two types of people.


The first are those who try to hit and hold the back portion of Biarritz with an aerial shot, because technology lets them do that today. 


The second are those that try the shot CBM was asking for.


The rest of the conversation is just a misunderstanding of intent.


Sven

[Tim Gallant]

Great thread, and it is great understanding the original intent of CBM. I played Yale this past summer and was told that the pin is rarely now at the back. Any confirmation on why this is the case? I remember there appeared to be a fairly severe right to left on the back tier. Is this the original shape that is now effectively unplayable because of modern green speeds?


I hit a low ball flight, and had to hit a 3 wood just to make the green. That said, my ball stopped pretty much on a dime on the front portion of the green. Two observations: even with my low ball flight, based on how my ball 'checked' on the front part of the green, I doubt anyone could run a ball through the Yale swale. 2: Do they intentionally keep the green softer so that more balls don't end up on the back or in the swale, thus negating the original intent of the hole?

[JReese]

I have not yet myself played a Biarritz but think it a fascinating concept.  It does seem however with modern equipment and irrigation practices most if not all of the original intent is lost.  Without the front section playing firm, it sounds like it is almost impossible to play a run up shot that will land on the front and roll through the swale to the back.  Therefore it probably doesn't much matter if the front of the complex is maintained at fairway vs. green height.  If the intent is already lost, and the front is maintained as green, why not use the front for some hole locations? 

[Declan Kavanagh]

That is a pretty awesome way to learn the game!

The "Biarritz shot" was the first shot I was "taught" in golf as a kid. The Old Scottish teaching pro at Piping Rock (Spence) took a bunch of us kids out to the 9th at Piping (Biarritz) and showed us how to hit a really low 4 wood onto the front section and run in into and up out of the swale with the right amount of "weight". Then he took us all over to the redan (#3) and showed us the "redan shot" by playing it off the fairway "kicker" on the right so it would take the slope left, filter onto the green surface and disappear down and away to the flag. As a kid when I got into that huge redan bunker there was no way I could get it up high enough onto the green. That bunker fact must have been 15 plus feet high.

[Declan Kavanagh]

Agree with you here James.  The shot requested by CBM is no longer a necessary shot to keep in your repertoire unless you do it as an homage to CB.  The closest shot we have now is when you are in the trees and have to punch it low to get out. 


Say what you will about B holes all you wish.  I think the 9th at Yale might be the most memorable hole I have ever played. 

I have not yet myself played a Biarritz but think it a fascinating concept.  It does seem however with modern equipment and irrigation practices most if not all of the original intent is lost.  Without the front section playing firm, it sounds like it is almost impossible to play a run up shot that will land on the front and roll through the swale to the back.  Therefore it probably doesn't much matter if the front of the complex is maintained at fairway vs. green height.  If the intent is already lost, and the front is maintained as green, why not use the front for some hole locations?

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