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BCowan

Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2017, 03:04:15 PM »
PS- I hope you build your women's club on your Dime.  Would love to see it.  You might wanna watch women struggle out of rough with 29 yard wide fairways   ::)


What is this "rough" you speak of?  You need to see a couple of my courses.  Whatever grass there is, is usually cut pretty short, because I do not like waiting for the people in front of me to look for their balls.

   I might play Stoatin Brae since it is a Renaissance course and not one of yours.  I can't play a Doak course for fear I'd like it   ;) :D

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2017, 03:08:14 PM »
My wife would agree with Tom on what courses she (and other women) enjoy. Our home course is tight. And she enjoys difficult for a high handicapper (Kapalua and The Island Club for example). Even forced carries which are reasonable from front tee she embraces if course otherwise fun (Primland). But she disliked Wailea Gold because too many greens protected by deep bunkers with no option. Of course, Mid Pines and Pine Needles probably her favorites.

V_Halyard

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Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2017, 03:32:45 PM »

2007: Daughter Age 13
Dad: "Hon, want to play golf with Me and your brother?    Daughter: "ugh"


2017- Current Day: Daughter Age 23 - Young Professional - Off the Family Payroll
Also, club has a new PGA Pro - delivery of comprehensive Club Golf programming
Daughter: "Dad, what would you think about me doing a week crash golf course with the pro..."

It was a combination play. Truthfully, I waited it out, but her friends at college play, her most respected female collegiate advisor is a huge golfer, her mom has improved spectacularly because of our new pro, her tastes have changed and quality programming reeled her in.  It was a decidedly respectful and active recognition of the needs of the club’s women golfers and delivery of supporting programming and recreation that brought her in.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 04:06:21 PM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2017, 04:09:11 PM »
I started a thread a few years back stating the future of golf is all up to women.   


With the coming administration all bets are off but the societal dynamics are still there to support it for at least another week or so.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2017, 06:10:33 PM »
There have been threads in the past about bespoke golf courses. Back in the day TEP suggested a match play course, one with radical features that presented terrifying risks which, if pulled off, would win you the hole. It would not be a course on which you would want to keep your score.

You don't see those courses in the US, but I sometimes wonder if some of the more radical UK courses (St Enodoch is one I have played) were designed as they were to enhance a match play mentality.

TD mentions above a bespoke course for women. I had not thought of that. I seems to me a terrific idea, if and only if it is different enough to make the median male golfer uncomfortable on it.

Since forever designers have talked about building courses for all types of golfers. (That's the point in their pitch when by head hits the table.) Maybe it's time to rethink that. Maybe not doing that would help grow the game. Maybe it would ratchet up the excitement.

Bob 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2017, 06:13:33 PM »




To me, spending a lot of time thinking about tee placement would miss the real point.  The important thing for women [and for higher-handicap men] is to make the course playable "through the green," as the Rule book calls it.  If we can minimize or eliminate forced carries except on an occasional tee shot, and design our greens so a woman can hit a 3-wood approach and not wind up in a hazard in front or behind it, then she'll be okay even if the tees are a little longer than ideal for her.


Occasionally, on rugged land, what's a good hole for guys [150-yard diagonal carry over a ravine off the tee] leaves no good option for women to give them the same challenge:  you have to choose between making it too difficult for them, or too easy.  It amazes me that any architect would choose the former!  Even so, the situation is less than ideal; that's the difficulty of having to design at two or three different scales at the same time, and one reason I'm so adamant that the governing bodies should keep equipment in check, so the gaps from women to men to Tour pros don't keep getting bigger.


The other thing that holds back optimum design for women's golf is a tendency to demand "equal treatment" as men -- particularly, building big things that look like tees.  If you put those out where they really need to be, they're sometimes in the landing area for the back tee, and they're ugly as sin.  At Old Macdonald and Streamsong, our forward tees are just flat spots in the area mown as fairway -- which not only looks better from further back, but has the benefit that even a topped shot will roll out 50 yards or more, instead of getting stuck in the rough right in front of the tee.  But some women are offended by that, thinking I am treating them as second-class citizens.  Nothing could be further from the truth.


+++++111111
Every time I mention the whole ball equipment thing............
it's a scale thing that affects everyone and those who don't believe it don't live in the real world or are fortunate enough to play compace classic courses.


I've lived the tee thing too-why tees have to be such a big deal (for anyone) is beyond me.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 06:46:20 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2017, 08:38:16 PM »
A lot of the problem lies with the PGA Tour, in my opinion.  Korean women didn't start taking up golf until Se Ri Pak won the Women's Open, but once she did, it only took 10 years for the Koreans to start dominating women's golf.  There is just no opportunity for an American female golfer to have the same impact, because the PGA TOUR [and the Senior Tour, which it also operates] puts the LPGA in the shadows.


Please, spare me ''No opportunity''.  A friend of mine tried to play the LPGA tour.  She doesn't go out and buy tickets for our annual LPGA tourney nor does she watch it on TV now that she is an amateur again.  That is the difference between Men and woman.  On the other hand my dad does.  Guys 50+ support the LPGA by watching it.  But she is paying the dues for a membership for her family at the club we grew up at.  I doubt many of her junior golf friends are playing much anymore, they are prob working 2 jobs to pay for these astronomical housing prices.   

Korean girls/women are disciplined, they don't waste their time watching the Karcrashians and the House Wives of X city.  Time and Money are the 2 barriers.  The 3rd one is a biggie CULTURE.  My mother played golf as a kid, but she was more of a Tomboy.  Thankfully my grandparents didn't spoil her with material things (they didn't have money to) and she happened to take a liking to Golf.  Thankfully so, I wouldn't of had a nice golf course to grow up had it not been for my mother.  Woman are going to enter golf 3 ways, 1. work leagues 2. rest of family plays  3. girlfriends are hardcore golfers  4. Culture changes (don't hold your breathe)

Girls are already playing the game IMO.  Every suggestion is a top down approach, this organization needs to do that, how about all the people bitching go out and give free clinics with your local pro who doesn't get any publicity.  I see lots of girls and women playing at my club, but then again elitist on here call my joint a public track  ;) .  It goes back to UKish culture.   

I do think that fairway width increases back to the golden age levels on many older courses would be wonderful, 45-50 yard fairways.


Ben:


You are basing your entire post on one, unnamed golfer who wasn't good enough to make the LPGA Tour?  Don't be an idiot.


I've met a lot of women who play the Tour.  With rare exceptions, you could not find a nicer group of men or women, or players who are more appreciative of the chances they have.  They write thank-you notes, they dress up for "gala" sponsor's parties even though they don't want to, they sign every autograph and go two steps beyond to interact with people.  And every last one of them would kick your ass from whatever tees you wanted to play.


I said the players had "no opportunity to have the same impact" as Se Ri Pak did, and I'll stand by that.  They would need a lot of help from the media to achieve that, and our media is not going to give it to them.


P.S.  Widening fairways is pointless for the women's game.  The better players hit it on a rope; the high-handicappers don't hit it far enough to get very far off line.  One of my goals before I retire is to design a course strictly for women's play -- it would be shorter and tighter and more intimate and MUCH more sustainable -- and then watch a bunch of guys try to play it.  Most would come off looking stupid.


I have only played one course for women.  It has one set of tees at about 5400 yards (probably a bit too long in earnest and could use a forward set), next to no forced carries and fairways which are not generous. Longest hole is 422 yards and there are three of this sort of length called par 5s.  Even so, playing to my handicap around there is a good score.  Miss fairways and one can be in big trouble so the length of men is often mitigated unless they are very accurate.  Its a good course and made my GB&I 50 Favourites.  Its also a looker.  To me, if we want women in the game, we need to design more courses of this ilk.  Trying to design courses from 7000+ to 5000 yards is a complete waste of time because we all know these are really courses for men with tees miles forward which cause a complete disconnection with the intimacy of the game. 


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1438944.html#msg1438944


Ciao
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 04:00:14 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2017, 09:21:46 PM »
Thread of the year so far in 2017.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 11:29:00 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2017, 02:58:05 AM »
Golf for women, a strange concept! I suspect the at the turn of the last century men accepted women who could play well, and let's face it there is a small percentage who can keep up with the men. But placing their tee 20 yards ahead of the regular ones only really works for women who hit it 10 yards less than the fellows. This policy ensured the golf course was an outdoor man cave for over a century.


Now we want women to play to keep the game we love economically viable. We now realize we can't just give the a 10 yard head start. I know the options provided by Alice Dye have greatly enhanced my wife's love of the game; the 4900 golf course allows her to make pars and the occasional birdie and just like any other golfer she really gets a thrill out of that. I know she hates a 5700 yard slog where there is little chance to make a single par. However the women who play regularly seem to enjoy playing 4 par 6's, 10 par 5's, and 4 par 4's! I don't understand that concept and recognize that ladies who frequently play resist any efforts to shorten their course.


In thinking about the most successful ladies course I come to Formby Ladies GC in England. The gals have a lot of lay of the land greens where the ball can easily be run on but hey are not pandered to. There are several dunesy holes and probably the best 2 par 3 holes on the complex that are hard to par even for men. The length of 5300 yards is still probably a little too long exclusively for ladies but is just right to tempt men who can check their ego at the door and revel in shooting a lower than normal score. But most importantly it's their domain, they know ladies will be in the majority and men's finally are a mere afterthought. More Clubs like this would be good start.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 03:00:21 AM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2017, 05:38:39 AM »
My wife is a runner and does not play. The article/report does not mention the fitness of golf which has been destroyed in many areas of golf. Do any of the GCA wives/women walk, and it is in part due to fitness?
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2017, 07:00:48 AM »
My wife greatly prefers to walk. Some of it is fitness but mostly she does so for the same reasons those on this site do so--it enhances her enjoyment of the game, of the course, and of her time with her playing partners. Yesterday, we just booked our first trip to Bandon.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2017, 10:51:30 AM »
A lot of the problem lies with the PGA Tour, in my opinion.  Korean women didn't start taking up golf until Se Ri Pak won the Women's Open, but once she did, it only took 10 years for the Koreans to start dominating women's golf.  There is just no opportunity for an American female golfer to have the same impact, because the PGA TOUR [and the Senior Tour, which it also operates] puts the LPGA in the shadows.


Please, spare me ''No opportunity''.  A friend of mine tried to play the LPGA tour.  She doesn't go out and buy tickets for our annual LPGA tourney nor does she watch it on TV now that she is an amateur again.  That is the difference between Men and woman.  On the other hand my dad does.  Guys 50+ support the LPGA by watching it.  But she is paying the dues for a membership for her family at the club we grew up at.  I doubt many of her junior golf friends are playing much anymore, they are prob working 2 jobs to pay for these astronomical housing prices.   

Korean girls/women are disciplined, they don't waste their time watching the Karcrashians and the House Wives of X city.  Time and Money are the 2 barriers.  The 3rd one is a biggie CULTURE.  My mother played golf as a kid, but she was more of a Tomboy.  Thankfully my grandparents didn't spoil her with material things (they didn't have money to) and she happened to take a liking to Golf.  Thankfully so, I wouldn't of had a nice golf course to grow up had it not been for my mother.  Woman are going to enter golf 3 ways, 1. work leagues 2. rest of family plays  3. girlfriends are hardcore golfers  4. Culture changes (don't hold your breathe)

Girls are already playing the game IMO.  Every suggestion is a top down approach, this organization needs to do that, how about all the people bitching go out and give free clinics with your local pro who doesn't get any publicity.  I see lots of girls and women playing at my club, but then again elitist on here call my joint a public track  ;) .  It goes back to UKish culture.   

I do think that fairway width increases back to the golden age levels on many older courses would be wonderful, 45-50 yard fairways.


Ben:


You are basing your entire post on one, unnamed golfer who wasn't good enough to make the LPGA Tour?  Don't be an idiot.


I've met a lot of women who play the Tour.  With rare exceptions, you could not find a nicer group of men or women, or players who are more appreciative of the chances they have.  They write thank-you notes, they dress up for "gala" sponsor's parties even though they don't want to, they sign every autograph and go two steps beyond to interact with people.  And every last one of them would kick your ass from whatever tees you wanted to play.


I said the players had "no opportunity to have the same impact" as Se Ri Pak did, and I'll stand by that.  They would need a lot of help from the media to achieve that, and our media is not going to give it to them.


P.S.  Widening fairways is pointless for the women's game.  The better players hit it on a rope; the high-handicappers don't hit it far enough to get very far off line.  One of my goals before I retire is to design a course strictly for women's play -- it would be shorter and tighter and more intimate and MUCH more sustainable -- and then watch a bunch of guys try to play it.  Most would come off looking stupid.


I have only played one course for women.  It has one set of tees at about 5400 yards (probably a bit too long in earnest and could use a forward set), next to no forced carries and fairways which are not generous. Longest hole is 422 yards and there are three of this sort of length called par 5s.  Even so, playing to my handicap around there is a good score.  Miss fairways and one can be in big trouble so the length of men is often mitigated unless they are very accurate.  Its a good course and made my GB&I 50 Favourites.  Its also a looker.  To me, if we want women in the game, we need to design more courses of this ilk.  Trying to design courses from 7000+ to 5000 yards is a complete waste of time because we all know these are really courses for men with tees miles forward which cause a complete disconnection with the intimacy of the game. 


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1438944.html#msg1438944


Ciao


+1
has a very enjoyable morning there. Certainly not easy and very attractive and interesting.
Sean is right tha more courses like this would be great-Agree totally about the difficulty of building courses for all types from 7500-4000 yards. Makes it a big scale mess most times, serving no masters well.


The problem as I see it is that few developers want to do this due to ego or for business/demand reasons, wondering whether better players will scorn/shun their courses.
Where Sean and I frequently disagree is that I see this as very solveable problem with a rollback of equipment condensing the size of the field making coexistence of varying power levels much more condensed and a manageable golden age scale.



"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Buck Wolter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2017, 11:27:21 AM »
One of the things I don't understand as a believer in markets is how Title IX hasn't created a huge surge in young American women learning the game to win these scholarships. My old University dropped Baseball (and will eventually drop Wrestling I bet) because of offsetting scholarships and they have one one American on the team (1 from Spain, 1 Australia and 2 from Thailand). I don't believe there's a lack of drive, discipline, talent, opportunity driving this, American women dominate almost every other major sport (including Soccer!) there's something moving them to other sports-- my guess it's the team aspect of other sports.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2017, 12:13:23 PM »
One of the things I don't understand as a believer in markets is how Title IX hasn't created a huge surge in young American women learning the game to win these scholarships. My old University dropped Baseball (and will eventually drop Wrestling I bet) because of offsetting scholarships and they have one one American on the team (1 from Spain, 1 Australia and 2 from Thailand). I don't believe there's a lack of drive, discipline, talent, opportunity driving this, American women dominate almost every other major sport (including Soccer!) there's something moving them to other sports-- my guess it's the team aspect of other sports.


My guess is it's the $$.  It takes a lot of parental money to get a son or daughter through the ranks of elite junior golf, compared to Europe where there are national programs, club programs, etc.  A lot of the American collegiate golfers wouldn't even need scholarships, except that their parents have invested so much in getting them to the point of earning one.  The same is decidedly NOT true for soccer, basketball, etc.

BCowan

Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2017, 12:17:51 PM »
One of the things I don't understand as a believer in markets is how Title IX hasn't created a huge surge in young American women learning the game to win these scholarships. My old University dropped Baseball (and will eventually drop Wrestling I bet) because of offsetting scholarships and they have one one American on the team (1 from Spain, 1 Australia and 2 from Thailand). I don't believe there's a lack of drive, discipline, talent, opportunity driving this, American women dominate almost every other major sport (including Soccer!) there's something moving them to other sports-- my guess it's the team aspect of other sports.


My guess is it's the $$.  It takes a lot of parental money to get a son or daughter through the ranks of elite junior golf, compared to Europe where there are national programs, club programs, etc.  A lot of the American collegiate golfers wouldn't even need scholarships, except that their parents have invested so much in getting them to the point of earning one.  The same is decidedly NOT true for soccer, basketball, etc.

   I disagree.  Travel soccer and hockey is very expensive in the US.  High school friend of mine who was great at soccer used to drive from Toledo to Cleveland for soccer practice for state team i recall.  How many girls who played soccer through college continue to play it after?  I have friends who came from lower income that played college golf but they most likely wouldn't of afforded Hockey.  If a girl can break 85 or 90 she can get a Div 3 scholarship. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 12:20:49 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2017, 01:12:40 PM »
Buck, I would also suggest this (and focusing strictly on American sports):


There's always a hierarchy in terms of which sports attract which athletes, at least in the US. It's why we suck at soccer despite the country's general prowess in global athletics. Football, basketball, and baseball are the coolest sports here, and generally attract the attention of the most naturally gifted athletes. Soccer is further down, and golf further down still. #HotTake: Peak Tiger and Dustin Johnson get raved about as golf athletes, but only because they weren't athletic enough to cut it at the elite level in sports that the best athletes gravitate toward.


On the girls'/women's side the hierarchy is slightly different, but the best female athletes still gravitate to other sports while golf serves the same niche it does for boys/men: essentially a game that allows less-gifted athletes to have a modicum of success by competing against others who weren't athletic enough to play a cooler and therefore more popular sport. And I resemble that comment, by the way, as I would love to still be able to play pickup basketball and do anything more than spread the floor, but I'm not athletic enough. I'm not much of a golfer either, but I'm good enough to do the equivalent of playing pickup games at the local rec center, which is all I wish I could get out of basketball without worrying I might catastrophically injure myself in the process.


So what does all this have to do with why women don't play golf? Well, fewer young women play sports growing up than young men, and fewer still participate with the same vigor that the average boys' sports athletes bring to the table. And so there are more openings on the soccer, basketball, and track teams, and thus less demand among actively-inclined girls to play golf growing up. I would argue that this is all clearly true, but here comes another #HotTake:


With fewer girls introduced to the game in their youth, the result is that fewer adult women play golf. And while some express interest, and guys like Tom Doak see women as a group ripe for participation growth, I just don't see it ever coming to fruition. What's going to attract a 20-something or 30-something active woman like my wife to the game? She's an athlete whose who was a highly competitive lacrosse and soccer player growing up, ran club-level track in college, and then became a regionally elite female road racer, and who also plays recreational volleyball and soccer almost year-round. She has enough money to play golf if she wants to, and she's the type of active and outdoor-oriented person that would seem like a potential golfer on the surface. She even loves hanging out with her obnoxious husband, an avid golfer, and frequently enjoys Topgolf. And yet, as she's starting to question her long-term strategy for staying active and fit as she hits what's likely the 4th or 5th "k" in her competitive running career, she's not gravitating toward actual golf at all - a game that takes 4+ hours to play in most circumstances, requires tons of equipment and practice just to get started in, and is generally dominated by old white men from a participation standpoint. She'd much rather hike, bike, or just go to the gym that her workplace provides for free and be finished with her workout and on to the next thing in an hour or so. She's uncomfortable with the game's environmental impact. She doesn't feel welcomed by the game's culture. She doesn't want to be told what to wear or how to behave. And yeah, she's just one woman, and a uniquely cantankerous one at that - how else would she deal with me all the time? But she's also not all that different from the median Millennial chick who just isn't interested in golf's bullshit, and I doubt that trend will change with future generations. Plenty of women already play golf, and the golf industry keeps telling us that women's participation is slowly growing. But all numbers I can find point to total stagnation at about a 4-5% women's participation rate since 1998, despite a few ups and downs along the way. Meanwhile, women's and girls' participation in sports overall has grown about 600% since Title IX was implemented. I just don't think a popularity boom in women's golf is coming, ever. And I don't think that's a #HotTake at all.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2017, 01:36:00 PM »
As Jason's post notes, culture matters a lot. Our course has a woman head pro, assistant pros who embrace teaching women, and few restrictions on tee times. Plus the head of the youth program is an excellent woman player. Also, despite it being a pretty mediocre course, it arranged to host a USGA Women's qualifier the past couple of years. It is not a particularly "fancy" club but it is in Maryland suburbs very close to D.C. so is in fairly respectable demand. We still have many more male players, but there is a good representation of women on the course (and in the bar). Despite a horrendous women's locker room (men's not much better), women feel welcome.

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2017, 01:59:04 PM »
After reading through this entire post again, why is it that the only answer it seems it CAN'T be, based on all the responses, is that maybe most women who don't golf simply don't want to play golf? I don't play beach volleyball because I don't like beach volleyball. There are plenty of reasons why (I don't live near a beach, I don't like the beach, I don't have people to play with, I don't very much care for the sport), but even if you changed all those things I still wouldn't play beach or regular volleyball.

It's almost laughable and also quite an arrogant way of thinking. The thread title says 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf. Alternatively, it could say 71% of non-golfing women DON'T want to play golf. But of course there just has to be a reason outside of 71% of women don't care for the game.

As I said earlier, 87% of women who golf said they would play the same or more next year. That number is substantial and indicates quite strongly that the vast majority of women who care to play are quite happy with the game the way it is.         

Maybe it's just me, but some of the suggestions on how to get women to play golf seem absolutely crazy. For example, if a person can't carry the ball 150 yards consistently, be it a woman, man, child, or anything, I don't think they should be on a golf course period and building/designing a course for them I think is absurd. A pitch and putt? Sure. Other? Rare instances.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 02:03:09 PM by Frank Mastroianni »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2017, 02:23:43 PM »
The key issues are (1) what will encourage women who play already to play more frequently (the survey does not tell us how frequently those who play already do so) and (2) for the health of the game, are there ways to encourage more women to start playing. My prior posts largely address the first question. With respect to the second, strong youth programs and courses that welcome "converted" women athletes  to embrace a sport that can be played well into old age seem to be the right answers. Course architecture and culture simply matter a lot. I am lucky that my wife loves golf and welcomes the challenge of virtually any course and any playing partners, but the sport and business would be better off if more women were encouraged to have her approach and enthusiasm.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2017, 02:29:20 PM »
For example, if a person can't carry the ball 150 yards consistently, be it a woman, man, child, or anything, I don't think they should be on a golf course period and building/designing a course for them I think is absurd.


Well, you just eliminated 75% of today's women golfers, and also 95% of beginners in the history of the game.  Damn good thing we don't put you in charge!

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2017, 03:06:33 PM »

Well, you just eliminated 75% of today's women golfers, and also 95% of beginners in the history of the game.  Damn good thing we don't put you in charge!

I was a beginner and I began on the range. So did my mother and father before me, my nephew, niece and my kids if I ever have any. We all went from there to a local pitch and putt we had in the area. I don't see anything wrong with that. And you're probably right, if I was "in charge" I'd be looking to get female golfers into the game who want to golf with the game as it is and not how 29% of non-golfing female *might* want to see it. I have no issue with a short 9 hole course and pitch and putt here and there, but I don't see the benefit of designing courses in general to accommodate beginners and those who can't manage to carry the ball a certain distance in the air, especially if you don't have any facts to back up it would encourage more female golfers.

It may be true that 75% of today's women golfers are not able to carry the ball 150 yards, so I'll modify my parameters and bring it down to 100 yards if that's the case. But 150 or 100 yards carry doesn't change the fact that I don't believe we should be designing courses for beginners and golfers who don't meet a minimum carry distance, and based on the table in the OP, I'm betting a majority of the 87% of women who golf who would play the same or more next year would agree with me, especially considering nearly none of the golfers surveyed said they would play more golf if it was easier or featured less forced carry in the question "what would encourage golfers to play more."
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 07:00:39 PM by Frank M »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2017, 03:11:09 PM »


It's almost laughable and also quite an arrogant way of thinking. The thread title says 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf. Alternatively, it could say 71% of non-golfing women DON'T want to play golf. But of course there just has to be a reason outside of 71% of women don't care for the game.

As I said earlier, 87% of women who golf said they would play the same or more next year. That number is substantial and indicates quite strongly that the vast majority of women who care to play are quite happy with the game the way it is.         

Maybe it's just me, but some of the suggestions on how to get women to play golf seem absolutely crazy. For example, if a person can't carry the ball 150 yards consistently, be it a woman, man, child, or anything, I don't think they should be on a golf course period and building/designing a course for them I think is absurd. A pitch and putt? Sure. Other? Rare instances.



Whoo boy!  Even if you think some things, you probably shouldn't say them out loud! ;)


I would say your thoughts seem to be the arrogant ones! 


One of the reasons we say the Great Game of Golf (some say the Greatest Game) is there is no real reason that everyone can't try it, and have fun.  We don't want to place limits on who can start.


Secondly, my experience with adding forward tees is not that women really enjoy the game as it is, they just accept it because they don't figure it will change. Once we reduce the forward tees (and actually, men's senior tees) they really appreciate playing 3600-4400 yard courses.  They can actually hit a dozen or more greens, like you and me. 


When accommodating those women who play and those 29% who would play is so easy, its a crime not to do it. Frankly, as opposed to Tom Doak, I think we should even accept those forward tees as a minor distraction to those 1% who play the back tees.  Is there any real reason every whim of 1% of customers should dictate how we design for the other 99%?


In your business does any customer ever accept that "It should be good enough for them" attitude?  I doubt it.  Mostly likely, they say nothing, but don't come back.


Perhaps the real best thing about those forward tees is how relevant they can make women in those corporate outing scrambles.  All of a sudden, if at least two tee shots per round are required from each player, and even when not, having a decent female playing the forward tees is a distinct advantage.  So, not only do those women experience golf the way it was meant to be played, they get a bit of the camaraderie as it was meant to be, too.


My two cents.  Your opinion may vary.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Frank M

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Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf.... New
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2017, 03:15:36 PM »

Whoo boy!  Even if you think some things, you probably shouldn't say them out loud! ;)

I would say your thoughts seem to be the arrogant ones! 


Let me get this straight, so you're saying my thoughts are the arrogant ones because I think 100% of all females can make decisions and that maybe the reason 71% of non-golfing females decide not to golf is because they have made the decision that they don't care for golf?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 12:40:14 AM by Frank M »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2017, 03:21:12 PM »

I was focused mostly on the third paragraph of the highlighted quote.  You presuming to set some minimum standard for new players (or existing ones) was pretty arrogant.  Sort of a "last one into paradise" type of thinking.


And, it doesn't really matter what I think of your broad brushed statements about what women want.....its what women think of them, no? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jud_T

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Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2017, 03:24:29 PM »
Let us not forget that women have to actually feel comfortable and welcome to want to come out regularly and play.  They have to be welcomed into the club, literally and figuratively.  Having guys behind them bitching about pace of play, having restricted times, memberships, men's grills, not to mention the entire old-school culture of a guy's getaway, swearing, smoking cigars, drinking, gambling, hitting on the cart girl, "locker room talk" etc. doesn't necessarily lend itself to this.  Not saying what's right or wrong or that overweening political correctness is needed all the time at all courses and clubs, but to me this may as big an obstacle as the difficulty of the course itself. 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 03:27:00 PM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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