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Mike Sweeney

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29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« on: January 07, 2017, 09:22:59 AM »
GCA.com is probably NOT the best forum to discuss women's topics, but this is interesting:


http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2016/12/29-of-non-golfing-women-want-to-play-golf/


http://unlockinggolfstruepotential.co.uk

The report, The Global Economic Value of Increased Female Participation in Golf, commissioned by Syngenta and conducted by an independent international market research company, surveyed 14,000 people in eight markets in North America, Europe and Asia.


and it talks about other issues too:





Probably can't change the weather, but time and money still are the big issues...
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 09:25:39 AM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 10:05:36 AM »
a shorter course w/ fewer bunkers?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 10:40:01 AM »
God I have been saying this for 20 years, though I'm surprised the headline number is so high.  Women [and kids] are the obvious target for growing the game.  The % of men who play has been fairly constant for decades, and across many geographic and cultural lines ... but the % of women who play is dramatically lower, even though the economics are the same.  Duh!


A lot of the problem lies with the PGA Tour, in my opinion.  Korean women didn't start taking up golf until Se Ri Pak won the Women's Open, but once she did, it only took 10 years for the Koreans to start dominating women's golf.  There is just no opportunity for an American female golfer to have the same impact, because the PGA TOUR [and the Senior Tour, which it also operates] puts the LPGA in the shadows.


Time and money are not quite the barriers they're made out to be.  The two factors that would help women play more that they relegated to the fine print were "Nine hole green fees" and "My children were able to go with me whenever I play".  Fix those, and you've made a big dent in the money and the time.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2017, 11:16:39 AM »
 8) ... and archies, don't give the men a view and put the women's tees in a hole, Ms Sheila hates that and will play further back tees if there's not too much carry involved.
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2017, 11:30:19 AM »
My wife doesn't want to play nearly as much as she wants me to do something else. As unhappy as she can be at a 5 star hotel I doubt the quality of the golf experience matters. It's more about the attitude of the company she keeps. Compliments, credit and tumecents play a larger role.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2017, 11:30:38 AM »
An excellent way to interest women in golf is to offer children's programs that are engaging and fun, and allow the women a chance to enjoy 1-2 of 3-9 hole fun themselves.
Playing with your kids may sound like fun(and it is),but if it's your only chance you get to play, it's a bit like herding cats and not be conducive to learning the game..
Family golf is great, but Mom deserves a chance to go oyt on her own too-then the time with the kids can be about them.



Sometimes it just takes a nudge-having a group helps, as does a playable course (short tees are one thing but frankly where's the fun in 200 yard walks between tees) another reason I hate big, long and modern
on many courses super tight fairways (a nightmare for Fway woods and short game shots), deep bunkers, deep rough, "native grasses"
all raise expense and lower fun for beginners.


We are blessed to have Sag Harbor GC in my town-$400 annually-meets all the criteria and I just transferred my membership to my wife. My wife and her friends play 9 in under 1 1/2 hours despite it being a busy place.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 12:33:19 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCowan

Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2017, 11:35:28 AM »
God I have been saying this for 20 years, though I'm surprised the headline number is so high.  Women [and kids] are the obvious target for growing the game.  The % of men who play has been fairly constant for decades, and across many geographic and cultural lines ... but the % of women who play is dramatically lower, even though the economics are the same.  Duh!


A lot of the problem lies with the PGA Tour, in my opinion.  Korean women didn't start taking up golf until Se Ri Pak won the Women's Open, but once she did, it only took 10 years for the Koreans to start dominating women's golf.  There is just no opportunity for an American female golfer to have the same impact, because the PGA TOUR [and the Senior Tour, which it also operates] puts the LPGA in the shadows.


Time and money are not quite the barriers they're made out to be.  The two factors that would help women play more that they relegated to the fine print were "Nine hole green fees" and "My children were able to go with me whenever I play".  Fix those, and you've made a big dent in the money and the time.

Please, spare me ''No opportunity''.  A friend of mine tried to play the LPGA tour.  She doesn't go out and buy tickets for our annual LPGA tourney nor does she watch it on TV now that she is an amateur again.  That is the difference between Men and woman.  On the other hand my dad does.  Guys 50+ support the LPGA by watching it.  But she is paying the dues for a membership for her family at the club we grew up at.  I doubt many of her junior golf friends are playing much anymore, they are prob working 2 jobs to pay for these astronomical housing prices.   

Korean girls/women are disciplined, they don't waste their time watching the Karcrashians and the House Wives of X city.  Time and Money are the 2 barriers.  The 3rd one is a biggie CULTURE.  My mother played golf as a kid, but she was more of a Tomboy.  Thankfully my grandparents didn't spoil her with material things (they didn't have money to) and she happened to take a liking to Golf.  Thankfully so, I wouldn't of had a nice golf course to grow up had it not been for my mother.  Woman are going to enter golf 3 ways, 1. work leagues 2. rest of family plays  3. girlfriends are hardcore golfers  4. Culture changes (don't hold your breathe)

Girls are already playing the game IMO.  Every suggestion is a top down approach, this organization needs to do that, how about all the people bitching go out and give free clinics with your local pro who doesn't get any publicity.  I see lots of girls and women playing at my club, but then again elitist on here call my joint a public track  ;) .  It goes back to UKish culture.   

I do think that fairway width increases back to the golden age levels on many older courses would be wonderful, 45-50 yard fairways.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 11:39:54 AM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2017, 11:59:42 AM »
An excellent way to meet this need is to offer children's programs that are engaging and fun, and allow the women a chance to enjoy 1-2 of 3-9 hole fun themselves.
Playing with your kids may sound like fun(and it is),but if it's your only chance you get to play, it's a bit like herding cats and not be conducive to learning the game..
Family golf is great, but Mom deserves a chance to go oyt on her own too-then the time with the kids can be about them.



Sometimes it just takes a nudge-having a group helps, as does a playable course (short tees are one thing but frankly where's the fun in 200 yard walks between tees) another reason I hate big, long and modern
on many courses super tight fairways (a nightmare for Fway woods and short game shots), deep bunkers, deep rough, "native grasses"
all raise expense and lower fun for beginners.


We are blessed to have Sag Harbor GC in my town-$400 annually-meets all the criteria and I just transferred my membership to my wife. My wife and her friends play 9 in under 1 1/2 hours despite it being a busy place.

The fact that women WANT to play golf doesn't mean they think they NEED to play golf. The "need" part of this conversation comes from those who want to "grow the game" for the ultimate economic success of the industry.

That said, what's stopping a woman from playing golf if she wants to? I don't get this stance and why the game should look to cater to what 29% of the "non-golfing" women population want?

Everyone is quick to say we need to change this or that, yet according to the table above, 87% of the 3,721 female golfers who were part of the study said they would play the same or more golf next year...that doesn't seem like women have a problem with the game the way it is.

We need to start separating what is good for the game as a whole and what is good for the game from a business perspective. If we keep looking at golf as an industry, I think it is ironically unfavorable to the long term success of the industry.

That said, I'm all for making the game accessible to all, but the game is great as it is.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 12:02:46 PM by Frank Mastroianni »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2017, 12:21:06 PM »
Frank,
I'm hardly a "grow the game" guy, and I hate many of the "fixes" suggested by equipment CEO's trying to simply grow their own bottom line, and I agree the game does not NEED to grow....


That said (and you replied to my post)
I fail to see how what I posted does anything other than attempt to address the question posed by Mike=
--that is "how do we introduce and allow the certain % of women who have indicated they'd like to play more golf" to do it?


I even brought the topic around to ON topic-architecture
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2017, 12:26:46 PM »
God I have been saying this for 20 years, though I'm surprised the headline number is so high.  Women [and kids] are the obvious target for growing the game.  The % of men who play has been fairly constant for decades, and across many geographic and cultural lines ... but the % of women who play is dramatically lower, even though the economics are the same.  Duh!


A lot of the problem lies with the PGA Tour, in my opinion.  Korean women didn't start taking up golf until Se Ri Pak won the Women's Open, but once she did, it only took 10 years for the Koreans to start dominating women's golf.  There is just no opportunity for an American female golfer to have the same impact, because the PGA TOUR [and the Senior Tour, which it also operates] puts the LPGA in the shadows.


Time and money are not quite the barriers they're made out to be.  The two factors that would help women play more that they relegated to the fine print were "Nine hole green fees" and "My children were able to go with me whenever I play".  Fix those, and you've made a big dent in the money and the time.
I agree with your sentiments wholeheartedly. Another major contributor to the decline in women's golf in the U.S. is the fact that the majority of courses simply do not cater to them. Most women's tees on public and many private courses are mere afterthoughts. Many are nothing more than two posts placed in a circle cut out of the rough just preceding the fairway, with little thought given to playing angles and hazard influence, etc.. Heck, you're lucky to find tees of this nature that are cut on level ground.


I would also argue that the skill level of the average woman golfer is even broader than men. There is a good portion of women at my club that play from the whites that consistently drive the ball 210 - 220 yards. Then there is my wife who is lucky to get a 140 yards on her best drives with roll. That's a huge disparity and most GCA's aren't going to account for the tee complexes needed for the range of skill levels that exist between men and women, as the costs would be astronomical. You would be looking at needing 4 or 5 tee complexes on most non Par 3's and for what little play women's tee complexes receive the expense of maintaining them wouldn't be worth it to the course owner or operator. The flip side of this is if women feel like second class citizens on the rare occasion they play a round of golf - either with a group of women, spouses or significant other - where is the incentive for them to come back?


Tom, as an esteemed architect how much thought do you give to the number and location of women's tee complexes in your course designs knowing the costs involved and that men comprise 80% of the rounds of golf played each year - arguably even more so at public courses? I ask this purely out of curiosity. I'd love to hear from other GCA's on this subject as well. I will say that at my club they've done a nice job of having 3 or 4 tee complexes on non Par3's that cater the varying skill levels of the woman golfer. Most of them are raised and if they are not they are at least on level ground and were built there intentionally.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 12:30:10 PM by Mike Bodo »
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2017, 12:27:13 PM »
JeffWarne: I probably should have edited the quote to only include the line where you say "an excellent way to meet this need..." in terms of my response and your quote. That was really the only section I was referring to directly.

Everything else was just an extended response to the OP.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2017, 12:33:45 PM »
JeffWarne: I probably should have edited the quote to only include the line where you say "an excellent way to meet this need..." in terms of my response and your quote. That was really the only section I was referring to directly.

Everything else was just an extended response to the OP.


semantics
edited
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Bodo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2017, 12:56:32 PM »

Please, spare me ''No opportunity''.  A friend of mine tried to play the LPGA tour.  She doesn't go out and buy tickets for our annual LPGA tourney nor does she watch it on TV now that she is an amateur again.  That is the difference between Men and woman.  On the other hand my dad does.  Guys 50+ support the LPGA by watching it.  But she is paying the dues for a membership for her family at the club we grew up at.  I doubt many of her junior golf friends are playing much anymore, they are prob working 2 jobs to pay for these astronomical housing prices.   

Korean girls/women are disciplined, they don't waste their time watching the Karcrashians and the House Wives of X city.  Time and Money are the 2 barriers.  The 3rd one is a biggie CULTURE.  My mother played golf as a kid, but she was more of a Tomboy.  Thankfully my grandparents didn't spoil her with material things (they didn't have money to) and she happened to take a liking to Golf.  Thankfully so, I wouldn't of had a nice golf course to grow up had it not been for my mother.  Woman are going to enter golf 3 ways, 1. work leagues 2. rest of family plays  3. girlfriends are hardcore golfers  4. Culture changes (don't hold your breathe)

Girls are already playing the game IMO.  Every suggestion is a top down approach, this organization needs to do that, how about all the people bitching go out and give free clinics with your local pro who doesn't get any publicity.  I see lots of girls and women playing at my club, but then again elitist on here call my joint a public track  ;) .  It goes back to UKish culture.   

I do think that fairway width increases back to the golden age levels on many older courses would be wonderful, 45-50 yard fairways.
You raise some interesting and salient points. There's no doubt that the Korean and Asian cultures in general are different from ours. Girls there don't waste hours on end on social media and watching shows of the ilk mentioned. However, the governments in those countries have put a lot of money behind the golf movement, same with other niche sports such as gymnastics and swimming that they feel they can exploit to show their superiority. Frankly speaking, they are doing an excellent job of it. In fact, it is so competitive at an early age that only the best of the best advance through to adulthood. Whereas an average high school in the U.S. is lucky to field a complete team of women golfers, in Korea you may have 50 - 60 girls that try out, with only 10 making it. If you're identified as being super-talented you get plucked out of the system early and are groomed for entry into LPGA. This is a completely different approach and mindset from the U.S. and I'd argue that it isn't necessarily a better one, as many of these girls burn out in their 20's. Look no further than Yani Tseng who was dominating the LPGA just a few years ago, but is a shell of her former self today.


I don't know what the answer is to change this trend and get more young girls in the U.S. playing golf earlier and longer. In the U.S. you have Lexi Thompson and in Canada, Brooke Henderson that the LPGA is attempting to make the face of their tour. Will their success and the endorsements that follow generate interest among a generation of young girls both here and in Canada? Canada, perhaps. The U.S.? I don't know. I suppose a lot will depend on each golfers level of success and if they can consistently be competitive year in and year out where they don't fall out of the public's mind.


On a separate note, when did Radrick Farms become a public track? People who haven't seen it or played it don't know what they are talking about.  ;)
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2017, 02:10:35 PM »
It would be splendid to get more women and girls involved in the game.
It is afterall a game that all the family can play and that can be played by just about all ages and forever, given appropriate health etc.

As to tees, hopefully the use of non-gender tees will increase, not just men moving forward but women and girls moving back as well.
Atb

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2017, 02:16:21 PM »
It would be splendid to get more women and girls involved in the game.

As to tees, hopefully the use of non-gender tees will increase, not just men moving forward but women and girls moving back as well.
Atb





Amen
Nothing more frustrating than men needing 4-5 sets and women needing more as well.
3-max 4 sets, mixed and matched should serve many/all masters if we can just get men who drive it 120 not to insist on a tee for them bullt 10 yards behind the forward tees.
As a side note, it's interesting all that goes into building/infrastructure of a tee for perfect drainage and conditioning.
Especially given that you are given a wood tee to start with ;D
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 02:18:33 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2017, 02:22:36 PM »
My wife is an avid golfer and although a 28 enjoys virtually any good course so long as there are not too many forced carriers. She has friends who play a bit but she has found that not feeling comfortable playing with people they do not know well, particularly men, is a barrier to them playing more frequently. She tells them what I told her when she started: play fast and know proper etiquette. I am not sure what systemically can be done other than perhaps encourage private and public clubs to have strong women's programs. But I know I have enjoyed the game more (and get play some great courses) because she likes to play, and it would be great if more women gave it a real go.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2017, 02:24:56 PM »
I forgot to mention above something an acquaintance of mine once said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek I suspect - "if your wife and kids play golf then Christmas and birthday presents become easier to choose."
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2017, 02:26:27 PM »
A lot of the problem lies with the PGA Tour, in my opinion.  Korean women didn't start taking up golf until Se Ri Pak won the Women's Open, but once she did, it only took 10 years for the Koreans to start dominating women's golf.  There is just no opportunity for an American female golfer to have the same impact, because the PGA TOUR [and the Senior Tour, which it also operates] puts the LPGA in the shadows.


Please, spare me ''No opportunity''.  A friend of mine tried to play the LPGA tour.  She doesn't go out and buy tickets for our annual LPGA tourney nor does she watch it on TV now that she is an amateur again.  That is the difference between Men and woman.  On the other hand my dad does.  Guys 50+ support the LPGA by watching it.  But she is paying the dues for a membership for her family at the club we grew up at.  I doubt many of her junior golf friends are playing much anymore, they are prob working 2 jobs to pay for these astronomical housing prices.   

Korean girls/women are disciplined, they don't waste their time watching the Karcrashians and the House Wives of X city.  Time and Money are the 2 barriers.  The 3rd one is a biggie CULTURE.  My mother played golf as a kid, but she was more of a Tomboy.  Thankfully my grandparents didn't spoil her with material things (they didn't have money to) and she happened to take a liking to Golf.  Thankfully so, I wouldn't of had a nice golf course to grow up had it not been for my mother.  Woman are going to enter golf 3 ways, 1. work leagues 2. rest of family plays  3. girlfriends are hardcore golfers  4. Culture changes (don't hold your breathe)

Girls are already playing the game IMO.  Every suggestion is a top down approach, this organization needs to do that, how about all the people bitching go out and give free clinics with your local pro who doesn't get any publicity.  I see lots of girls and women playing at my club, but then again elitist on here call my joint a public track  ;) .  It goes back to UKish culture.   

I do think that fairway width increases back to the golden age levels on many older courses would be wonderful, 45-50 yard fairways.


Ben:


You are basing your entire post on one, unnamed golfer who wasn't good enough to make the LPGA Tour?  Don't be an idiot.


I've met a lot of women who play the Tour.  With rare exceptions, you could not find a nicer group of men or women, or players who are more appreciative of the chances they have.  They write thank-you notes, they dress up for "gala" sponsor's parties even though they don't want to, they sign every autograph and go two steps beyond to interact with people.  And every last one of them would kick your ass from whatever tees you wanted to play.


I said the players had "no opportunity to have the same impact" as Se Ri Pak did, and I'll stand by that.  They would need a lot of help from the media to achieve that, and our media is not going to give it to them.


P.S.  Widening fairways is pointless for the women's game.  The better players hit it on a rope; the high-handicappers don't hit it far enough to get very far off line.  One of my goals before I retire is to design a course strictly for women's play -- it would be shorter and tighter and more intimate and MUCH more sustainable -- and then watch a bunch of guys try to play it.  Most would come off looking stupid.

BCowan

Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2017, 02:40:02 PM »
A lot of the problem lies with the PGA Tour, in my opinion.  Korean women didn't start taking up golf until Se Ri Pak won the Women's Open, but once she did, it only took 10 years for the Koreans to start dominating women's golf.  There is just no opportunity for an American female golfer to have the same impact, because the PGA TOUR [and the Senior Tour, which it also operates] puts the LPGA in the shadows.


Please, spare me ''No opportunity''.  A friend of mine tried to play the LPGA tour.  She doesn't go out and buy tickets for our annual LPGA tourney nor does she watch it on TV now that she is an amateur again.  That is the difference between Men and woman.  On the other hand my dad does.  Guys 50+ support the LPGA by watching it.  But she is paying the dues for a membership for her family at the club we grew up at.  I doubt many of her junior golf friends are playing much anymore, they are prob working 2 jobs to pay for these astronomical housing prices.   

Korean girls/women are disciplined, they don't waste their time watching the Karcrashians and the House Wives of X city.  Time and Money are the 2 barriers.  The 3rd one is a biggie CULTURE.  My mother played golf as a kid, but she was more of a Tomboy.  Thankfully my grandparents didn't spoil her with material things (they didn't have money to) and she happened to take a liking to Golf.  Thankfully so, I wouldn't of had a nice golf course to grow up had it not been for my mother.  Woman are going to enter golf 3 ways, 1. work leagues 2. rest of family plays  3. girlfriends are hardcore golfers  4. Culture changes (don't hold your breathe)

Girls are already playing the game IMO.  Every suggestion is a top down approach, this organization needs to do that, how about all the people bitching go out and give free clinics with your local pro who doesn't get any publicity.  I see lots of girls and women playing at my club, but then again elitist on here call my joint a public track  ;) .  It goes back to UKish culture.   

I do think that fairway width increases back to the golden age levels on many older courses would be wonderful, 45-50 yard fairways.


Ben:


You are basing your entire post on one, unnamed golfer who wasn't good enough to make the LPGA Tour?  Don't be an idiot.


I've met a lot of women who play the Tour.  With rare exceptions, you could not find a nicer group of men or women, or players who are more appreciative of the chances they have.  They write thank-you notes, they dress up for "gala" sponsor's parties even though they don't want to, they sign every autograph and go two steps beyond to interact with people.  And every last one of them would kick your ass from whatever tees you wanted to play.


I said the players had "no opportunity to have the same impact" as Se Ri Pak did, and I'll stand by that.  They would need a lot of help from the media to achieve that, and our media is not going to give it to them.


P.S.  Widening fairways is pointless for the women's game.  The better players hit it on a rope; the high-handicappers don't hit it far enough to get very far off line.  One of my goals before I retire is to design a course strictly for women's play -- it would be shorter and tighter and more intimate and MUCH more sustainable -- and then watch a bunch of guys try to play it.  Most would come off looking stupid.

Tom,

    I've caddied at about 4 or 5 clubs and caddied for many women.  (Some) of them loved me and wanted to adopt me.  I've also caddied for about 5 or 6 LPGA pro's back in the day.  We have a tourney in my home town for 27+ years.  I think I know a little about women's golf.  I agree that they are nicer to be around.  The point is women don't support their tour, aren't into sports like men are.  No central planning will change that.  It's starts at home.  Heck many that played college sports I bet watch men pro sports vs women's professional sports. 

    I've seen many Korean women in my home town hitting balls in Nov and March in the cold weather way prior to Se Ri Pak.  It goes back to CULTURE.  Our media has tried decade after decade to promote Women's golf.  The ones supporting it are men, due to what you said about they are nicer to be around and don't think of themselves as Rock stars like the PGA tour.  When did I say I could beat an LPGA golfer? 

PS- I hope you build your women's club on your Dime.  Would love to see it.  You might wanna watch women struggle out of rough with 29 yard wide fairways   ::)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 03:57:24 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2017, 02:42:26 PM »


Tom, as an esteemed architect how much thought do you give to the number and location of women's tee complexes in your course designs knowing the costs involved and that men comprise 80% of the rounds of golf played each year - arguably even more so at public courses? I ask this purely out of curiosity. I'd love to hear from other GCA's on this subject as well. I will say that at my club they've done a nice job of having 3 or 4 tee complexes on non Par3's that cater the varying skill levels of the woman golfer. Most of them are raised and if they are not they are at least on level ground and were built there intentionally.



Mike:


I worked for Pete and Alice Dye for several years, and Mrs. Dye was passionate about making their courses more fun and less unfair for the average woman golfer.  Plus, my mom was a high handicapper and my wife [and my ex] never played until they met me, so it's not hard for me to visualize how the average woman is going to have to get around one of my courses, and what I need to do so they can have a bit of fun out there.


To me, spending a lot of time thinking about tee placement would miss the real point.  The important thing for women [and for higher-handicap men] is to make the course playable "through the green," as the Rule book calls it.  If we can minimize or eliminate forced carries except on an occasional tee shot, and design our greens so a woman can hit a 3-wood approach and not wind up in a hazard in front or behind it, then she'll be okay even if the tees are a little longer than ideal for her.


Occasionally, on rugged land, what's a good hole for guys [150-yard diagonal carry over a ravine off the tee] leaves no good option for women to give them the same challenge:  you have to choose between making it too difficult for them, or too easy.  It amazes me that any architect would choose the former!  Even so, the situation is less than ideal; that's the difficulty of having to design at two or three different scales at the same time, and one reason I'm so adamant that the governing bodies should keep equipment in check, so the gaps from women to men to Tour pros don't keep getting bigger.


The other thing that holds back optimum design for women's golf is a tendency to demand "equal treatment" as men -- particularly, building big things that look like tees.  If you put those out where they really need to be, they're sometimes in the landing area for the back tee, and they're ugly as sin.  At Old Macdonald and Streamsong, our forward tees are just flat spots in the area mown as fairway -- which not only looks better from further back, but has the benefit that even a topped shot will roll out 50 yards or more, instead of getting stuck in the rough right in front of the tee.  But some women are offended by that, thinking I am treating them as second-class citizens.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

BCowan

Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2017, 02:42:47 PM »
My wife is an avid golfer and although a 28 enjoys virtually any good course so long as there are not too many forced carriers. She has friends who play a bit but she has found that not feeling comfortable playing with people they do not know well, particularly men, is a barrier to them playing more frequently. She tells them what I told her when she started: play fast and know proper etiquette. I am not sure what systemically can be done other than perhaps encourage private and public clubs to have strong women's programs. But I know I have enjoyed the game more (and get play some great courses) because she likes to play, and it would be great if more women gave it a real go.

Excellent post

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2017, 02:46:56 PM »
I've caddied at about 4 or 5 clubs and caddied for many women.  Most of them loved me and wanted to adopt me.


What about the rest of them?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

BCowan

Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2017, 02:47:45 PM »
I've caddied at about 4 or 5 clubs and caddied for many women.  Most of them loved me and wanted to adopt me.


What about the rest of them?

You can't win em all

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2017, 02:48:44 PM »
One of my goals before I retire is to design a course strictly for women's play -- it would be shorter and tighter and more intimate and MUCH more sustainable -- and then watch a bunch of guys try to play it.  Most would come off looking stupid.

Wonderful idea and a big chuckle about many men's possible performance! :) :) :)
No forced carries though!
Atb


PS - There used to be, indeed there still are, clubs in the UK that developed with either an adjacent 'Ladies Course' or a separately run Ladies Club alongside. Some are still around....Formby Ladies, Sunningdale Ladies, Aberdeen Ladies. Some on separate land, some on shared land.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 02:50:31 PM by Thomas Dai »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: 29% of non-golfing women want to play golf....
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2017, 02:50:58 PM »
PS- I hope you build your women's club on your Dime.  Would love to see it.  You might wanna watch women struggle out of rough with 29 yard wide fairways   ::)


What is this "rough" you speak of?  You need to see a couple of my courses.  Whatever grass there is, is usually cut pretty short, because I do not like waiting for the people in front of me to look for their balls.

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