North America UNOFFICIAL TOP 100 (2017)

[BCowan]

Okay this list is the North America Top 100 (2017).  I think 2-3 other lists should be generated by others (Southern Hemisphere, Europe, Asia & Russia, The Islands)?

In order to vote you need to have played 30 or more on the list.  10 plays needed for course to get included.  Throw out low and high.  Use the modified Doak Scale with (.3, .6, .9) as an example to help separate the courses better.  List is due NOV 1st! 

I have 348 courses and counting, please let me know if I should add ones? Hopefully we can get 50+ people to contribute to the NA list. 

 

Ak Chin Southern Dunes

Alotian Club

Arcadia Bluffs

Aronimink Golf Club

Atlantic City Country Club

Atlantic Golf Club

Augusta Country Club

Augusta National Golf Club

Ballyneal

Baltimore Country Club (East)

Baltusrol Golf Club (Lower)

Baltusrol Golf Club (Upper)

Bandon Dunes

Bandon Trails[/t][/t][/t]

   

Banff Springs

Battle Creek

Bayonne GC,

Bayonne Golf Club

Beacon Hall

Bel-Air Country Club

Belvedere

Berkshire

Bethpage State Park (Black)

Bethpage State Park (Red)

Beverly Country Club

Black Diamond Ranch (Quarry)

Black Sheep Golf Club

Black Mesa Golf Club

Blackwolf Run Golf Club (River)

Bob O Link

Boston Golf Club

Briggs Ranch Golf Club

Broadstone

Brook Hollow Country Club

Brookside Country Club

Bulls Bay

Butler National Golf Club

Cabo del Sol (Ocean)

Cabot Cliffs

Cabot Links

Caledonia Golf & Fish Club

California Golf Club

Calusa Pines Golf Club

Camargo Club

Canterbury Golf Club

Capilano

Carolina GC

Cascata

Castle Pines Golf Club

CC of Birmingham (West)

CC of Detroit

CC of Fairfield

CC of Scranton

CC of the Rockies

Cedar Rapids

Chambers Bay

Champions Golf Club (Cypress Creek)

Charlotte CC

Chart Hills

Chechessee Creek

Cherry Hills Country Club

Chicago Golf Club

Clear Creek

Cliffs at Mtn Park

Clovernook

Club de Golf Mexico

Colonial Country Club

Colorado GC

Columbus CC

Concession

Congressional Country Club (Blue)

Country Club of Fairfield

Creek Club

Crooked Stick Golf Club

Crosswater at Sunriver

Crown Colony Golf Club

Crystal Downs Country Club

Cuscowilla

Cypress Point Club

Dallas National Golf Club

Davenport

Desert Forest Golf Club

Devil's Paintbrush

Diamond Creek GC,

Diamond Springs

Dismal River Club (Doak)

Dismal River Club (Nicklaus)

Dormie

Double Eagle Golf Club

Dunes G & BC

East Lake Golf Club

Eastward Ho!

Ekwanok Country Club

Engineers Club

Erin Hills

Essex County Club

Estancia

Eugene Country Club

Exmoor

Fallen Oak GC,

Fenway Golf Club

Field Golf Club

Fishers Island Golf Club

Flint Hills National Golf Club

Flossmoor

Forest Creek Golf Club (North)

Forest Creek South

Forest Highlands Golf Club (Canyon)

Forest Dunes

Fox Chapel Golf Club

Franklin Hills Country Club

French Lick Dye

French Lick Ross

Friar’s Head

Galloway National Golf Club

Gamble Sands

Garden City Golf Club

Giants Ridge (Quarry)

Glens Falls

Gozzer Ranch GC

Grandfather

Greywalls

Gulf Harbour

Hamilton

Harbour Town Golf Links

Harvester Golf Club

Hawk’s Ridge Golf Club

Hawktree Golf Club

Hazeltine National Golf Club

Hidden Creek Golf Club

Highlands Links

Hollywood Golf Club

Holston Hills Country Club

Homestead Resort (Cascades)

Honors Course

Hope Valley

Hudson National GC,

Huntingdon Valley Country Club

Huntsman Springs

Hyde Park

Idle Hour

Indianwood Country Club (Old)

Innisbrook Copperhead

Interlachen Country Club

Inverness Club

Jasper Park

John’s Island Club (West)

Jupiter Hills Golf Club (Hills)

Kapalua Golf Club (Plantation)

Karsten Creek Golf Club

Kiawah Island (Ocean Course)

Kiawah Island (River Course)

Kiawah Island Club (Cassique)

Kingsley Club

Kinloch Golf Club

Kirtland

Kittansett Club

Lahontan

Lake Las Vegas (SouthShore)

Lancaster Country Club

Laurel Valley GC,

Lawsonia Golf Club (Links)

Lehigh Country Club

Long Cove Club

Lookout Mountain

Loop Black

Loop Red

Los Angeles Country Club (North)

Lost Dunes Golf Club

Madison Club

Maidstone Club

Manele GC

Martis Camp

May River

Mayacama Golf Club

Medinah #3

Merion East[/t][/t][/t]

Mid Pines

Milwaukee Country Club

Mimosa Hills

Minikahda Club

Mission Inn- El Campeon

Monroe GC,

Monterey Peninsula CC (Shore)

Moraine

Mossy Oak

Mount Juliet

Mountain Lake Club

Mountaintop GC

Mtn Ridge

Muirfield Village

Musgrove Mill Golf Club

Myopia Hunt Club

Nanea Golf Club

Naples National

National GC of Canada

National Golf Links of America

NCR CC (South)

Newport Country Club

North Shore (NY)

Northland Country Club

Oak Hill Country Club (East)

Oak Tree Golf Club

Oakland Hills Country Club (South)

Oakmont Country Club

Ocala GC

Ocean Course at Kiawah Island

Ocean Forest Golf Club

Ol Colony

Old Elm

Old Macdonald

Old Tabby Links

Old Town Club

Old White

Old Sandwich Golf Club

Olde Farm Golf Club

Olympia Fields Country Club (North)

Olympic Club (Lake)

Omaha

Orchard Lake

Paa-Ko Ridge Golf Club

Pacific Dunes

Palmetto

Paramount

Pasatiempo Golf Club

Patriot GC

Peachtree Golf Club

Pebble Beach Golf Links

Pete Dye Golf Club

PGA West Stadium

Philadelphia Country Club (Spring Mill)

Philadelphia Cricket Club (Wissahickon)

Pine Needles Country Club

Pine Valley Golf Club

Pinehurst No. 2

Pinetree

Piping Rock

Plainfield Country Club

Point O’Woods Country Club

Prairie Dunes Country Club

Princeville- Prince

Pronghorn (Fazio)

Pronghorn Club (Nicklaus)

Pumpkin Ridge Golf Club (Witch Hollow)

Punta Espada at Cap Cana

Quail Hollow Golf Club

Quaker Ridge Golf Club

Quintero Golf and Country Club

Ravisloe

Redtail

Ridgewood CC (Championship)

Riviera Country Club

Roaring Gap GC

Robert Trent Jones GC

Rock Creek Cattle Company

Rolling Green Golf Course

Rustic Canyon Golf Course

Sage Valley GC

Salem Country Club

San Diego CC

San Francisco Golf Club

Sanctuary

Sand Hills Golf Club

Sand Hollow

Sand Valley (C&C)

Sankaty Head GC

Saticoy

Saucon Valley CC (Weyhill)

Scioto Country Club

Sea Island Golf Club (Seaside)

Sebonack Golf Club

Secession Golf Club

Seminole Golf Club

Seven Canyons Golf Course

Shadow Creek Golf Club

Shaker Heights

Shaughnessy

Shinnecock Hills Golf Club

Shoal Creek Golf Course

Shooting Star GC

Shoreacres Golf Club

Skokie Country Club

Sleepy Hollow

Somerset Hills Country Club

Southampton

Southern Highlands Golf Club

Southern Hills Country Club

Southern Pines

Southerness

Spring Hill

Spring Island/Old Tabby Links

Springfield (OH)

Spyglass Hill Golf Club

St. George’s G&CC,

St. George's (Canada)

St. Louis Country Club

Stoatin Brae

Stone Eagle

Stonewall Old

Streamsong Blue

Streamsong Red

Sunnehanna Country Club

Sutton Bay Club

Sylvania CC

Taconic GC

Taconic Golf Club

The Club at Black Rock

The Country Club (Composite)

The Country Club (OH)

The Fields

The Golf Club

The Golf Club at Cuscowilla

The Minikahda Club

The Powder Horn

The Preserve

The Rim

The Stone Canyon Club

Timuquana

Tobacco Road

Torrey Pines South

TPC at Sawgrass (Players Stadium)

Trump National GC Bedminster (Old)

Trump National Golf Club

UofM

Valhalla Golf Club

Valley Club of Montecito

Victoria National Golf Club

Wade Hampton Club

Wannamoisett Country Club

Warren (ND)

We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)

Westchester Country Club (West)

Whippoorwill Country Club

Whisper Rock Golf Club (Upper)

Whispering Pines,

Whistling Straits (Straits)

White Bear Yacht Club

Wild Horse Golf Club

Wild Horse,

Wilshire

Wine Valley GC

Winged Foot Golf Club (East)

Winged Foot Golf Club (West)

Wolf Run

World Wood (Pine Barrens)

Wykagyl CC,

Yale University Golf Course

Yeamans Hall

[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]

[Jason Topp]

Ben - we went through this a few years ago.  You might want to pull those results up and seek to update.

[BCowan]

Jason,

  That was in 2009 and it was the world.  I think breaking it up in regions as in US, UK&I, Asia is much better

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42368.0.html

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:


I think you should at least ask Ran if he wants you to do this.  He approved of the exercise last time, but the circumstances were not the same.  Most importantly, if you don't say HOW you're going to do it, it's impossible to determine how informative the results will be.

[BCowan]

Tom,

  I just sent him a PM.  I assumed since he approved it last time, it wouldn't be an issue.  I threw it out as an idea in which people can come up with ideas on how to move forward.  When you say HOW, do you mean rating criteria?  I personally think spontaneous order is best.  I however would advocate removing any history from choosing courses (who was pro, tourneys ect.)     

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

  I just sent him a PM.  I assumed since he approved it last time, it wouldn't be an issue.  I threw it out as an idea in which people can come up with ideas on how to move forward.  When you say HOW, do you mean rating criteria?  I personally think spontaneous order is best.  I however would advocate removing any history from choosing courses (who was pro, tourneys ect.)     

People are going to rate the courses however they want, based on their own criteria.  Good luck trying to tell them otherwise.  But I meant, what is your process going to be for putting it all together?  What would a submitted vote look like, and how would the results be ordered? 


Getting people to rank 100's of courses they've seen is a pretty big ask, and compiling all of that data might be more time-consuming than you think.

[BCowan]

Tom,


I'm open to suggestions.

Well let's use the 200 courses listed as example.  One would have to play x% of those to be able to be a voter.  Then those people would list every course they feel is a Doak 6 or higher.  Every course has to be mentioned by 3 or more different people. Throw high and lows out if people want. Yes, it's time consuming as is watching other activities on the board today  .


The GD top 100 isn't nearly as bad as the State top 25 lists.  I wish we had more state Top 25 lists. I like to see and learn about gems and outliers. 

[Mike Bodo]

Powder Magazine puts on an NCAA style tournament each year called Ski Town Throwdown, in which they come up with what they feel are the best 16 ski resorts per region in a 64 resort tournament. The magazine staff seeds the resorts and creates the initial matchup's but readers determine who advances. I proposed something similar to this in a different thread earlier this week, but now that the door is open to suggestions, I am going to propose it here.


Below is an image of the bracket Powder comes up with for Ski Town Throwdown.



Now, how fun would it be to come up with a bracket of golf courses divided by region (North, South, East and West) split between classic era/modern era courses in which discussion group members vote to determine who advances? Imagine some of the interesting and wild match-up's that could result? Ben's got a great list of classic and modern era courses that we could easily narrow down and separate into brackets and seed them accordingly. I would propose going with 32 course brackets as opposed to 16, as this would provide a more diverse mix of courses with some potentially unexpected upsets.


Given the great minds and contributors we have in this forum I would put more credence in the results our group came up with than anything the golf trade magazines put out. If we can get Ran on-board then I'm willing to help where I can - especially as it concerns the technical end of things given the limitations of the discussion group forum. This may entail setting up a temporary site that only discussion group members can login and access, but I think it would be worth the venture purely from the pleasure and entertainment it would bring. Imagine some of the debates this could spawn should someone's favorite be usurped by a lesser-known and get knocked out of the tournament early?


Anyways, that's my proposal. Take it or leave it, but I feel this is a much more interesting and intriguing format for determining the best course in America than what's been proposed thus far and is unique to anything any Golf publication has done to date. I hope there is enough interest and support among the membership to pull this off.


PEACE! 




Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:


I think GOLF DIGEST actually did a matchup thing like that a year or two ago, which was covered here.  It was a reader poll where anyone could vote online, and some of their results were ridiculous ... you get what you pay for.


I guess you would have a better pool of voters here if you tried to do it the same way, but you're only going to produce a #1 that way ... want to bet it's Pine Valley?  You can't really declare a #5 or a #10 in a knockout thing like that, because so much depends on the seeding, which biases the results.

[Dan Gallaway]

How does Whistler only get a 4 seed!

[Mike Bodo]

How does Whistler only get a 4 seed!

LOL! I thought the same thing, as I LOVE Whistler. The Powder Magazine reader isn't the same as the Ski magazine reader. They're more grass roots and less commercial. Whistler has too much of the latter going for it and even more so now that Vail Resorts recently acquired them.

[Ross Harmon]

How does Whistler only get a 4 seed!

Quite possibly the greatest seeding injustice ever!

[jeffwarne]

Mike
No love for Big White in BC?





Dan,
I've been to Whistler twice-(actually how I discovered Big White)
Rain at the bottom always-riding the lift over dirt grass weeds the first 1000 feet of elevation reminds me of the Capital One commercial where the dad takes the kids skiing in the summer to save money.
Both times too windy at the top so could only ski the middle of the mountain.
bad luck sure but...

[Mike Bodo]

I guess you would have a better pool of voters here if you tried to do it the same way, but you're only going to produce a #1 that way ... want to bet it's Pine Valley?  You can't really declare a #5 or a #10 in a knockout thing like that, because so much depends on the seeding, which biases the results.

I understand and realize there could be some discrepancies due to seeding, but to me that's what makes this format even more appealing. In the grand scheme of things we would be doing this for fun and entertainment as opposed to anything serious, as no one is going to give a rats-ass what courses comprise our Sweet 16, Great 8 and Final Four. This to help those of us in the North and other parts of the U.S. affected by winter's chill (especially you and me who are freezing our asses off in MI right now) survive the doldrums .


As far as Pine Valley is concerned; the course wouldn't even make my Top 10. It's essentially Pinehurst #2 laid out over rolling terrain. I'll take ANGC and about a dozen others over it. But hey, that's just me. The process of determining the #1 ranked course using this format is what's most fun and intriguing to me. To do it the way the magazines have done predominately over the years is boring. You're just rehashing the same old shit at that point. Where's the fun in that?


Stay warm and thirsty, my friend! 




Mike

[Mike Bodo]

Mike
No love for Big White in BC?

I'm not familiar with Big White, but where can you capture moments like this there?



I'm actually chomping at the bit to get out to Revelstoke, as that place looks killer! 

[jeffwarne]

Mike
No love for Big White in BC?

I'm not familiar with Big White, but where can you capture moments like this there?



I'm actually chomping at the bit to get out to Revelstoke, as that place looks killer! 

Nice picture
alas HS basketball has squashed my skiing for another couple winters.....

[Mike Bodo]

Nice picture
alas HS basketball has squashed my skiing for another couple winters.....

I'm sorry to hear that, but I feel your pain.

[Sven Nilsen]

As far as Pine Valley is concerned; the course wouldn't even make my Top 10. It's essentially Pinehurst #2 laid out over rolling terrain. I'll take ANGC and about a dozen others over it. But hey, that's just me.

By jove, Mike Bodo, I read the above and your quote from one of the other threads copied below and I think you've solved the whole rater/comp issue preoccupying so many on the other threads.  All we need to do is have the raters rate courses they haven't seen.  It'll help the magazines, as the raters will need to keep up their subscriptions just to see if its true that Pine Valley looks just like the North Carolina courses in pictures, and thus must be the same in quality.  Obviously, this might cost the courses themselves a bit more money, as it will be necessary to have the florae in tip top shape when the magazine photographers come through.


Still working out how you do rater retreats in this new world of rating, perhaps by gotomeeting and powerpoint.


"Can someone explain to me how Pine Valley is rated above ANGC as the No. 1 course in America, besides being a tough SOB? I've never played it, but from the images I've seen it looks very similar to NC courses such as Pinehurst, Mid-Pines, etc. which none are in the Top 10 this year. Then again, I've never played Augusta National either, but from physical characteristics alone I would think ANGC offers more variety/challenge, in addition to being drop-dead gorgeous - especially when everything is in bloom."

[Mike Bodo]

As far as Pine Valley is concerned; the course wouldn't even make my Top 10. It's essentially Pinehurst #2 laid out over rolling terrain. I'll take ANGC and about a dozen others over it. But hey, that's just me.

By jove, Mike Bodo, I read the above and your quote from one of the other threads copied below and I think you've solved the whole rater/comp issue preoccupying so many on the other threads.  All we need to do is have the raters rate courses they haven't seen.  It'll help the magazines, as the raters will need to keep up their subscriptions just to see if its true that Pine Valley looks just like the North Carolina courses in pictures, and thus must be the same in quality.  Obviously, this might cost the courses themselves a bit more money, as it will be necessary to have the florae in tip top shape when the magazine photographers come through.


Still working out how you do rater retreats in this new world of rating, perhaps by gotomeeting and powerpoint.


"Can someone explain to me how Pine Valley is rated above ANGC as the No. 1 course in America, besides being a tough SOB? I've never played it, but from the images I've seen it looks very similar to NC courses such as Pinehurst, Mid-Pines, etc. which none are in the Top 10 this year. Then again, I've never played Augusta National either, but from physical characteristics alone I would think ANGC offers more variety/challenge, in addition to being drop-dead gorgeous - especially when everything is in bloom."

Considering there are few of us who have played even a fraction of the so-called Top 100, we all have subjective opinions based on what we see on TV, through images and stories passed down from other people - some who have played the courses in question and who's opinions we value and others whose opinions we read about. People make judgments on courses they've never played or claimed to have played all of the time. It's no different with movies. People have opinions on films they have never seen. That's human nature and it permeates every part of societal life.


I'm sorry, but based on images I've seen of Pine Valley, it doesn't look all that appealing to me and I've been around enough golf courses in my lifetime to know what I like and what I don't. I'm sure there are those who have played Pine Valley and those who have never stepped foot on it who will say they love it! Which I am perfectly fine with. All I offered was an opinion based on what I've seen and read. I will likely never play 30% of America's Top 100 courses in my lifetime. Many because they are private and I simply don't have access to them, while others, such as Pebble Beach, I feel are overly priced for what they are and I don't like being gouged. Still, there are others I simply have no desire to play based on what I've seen, read or heard. Most importantly, as a Donald Ross fan, I have a bucket list of his courses I want to check out before my time on the planet is through and that's what I intend to do. I have more interest in that than seeing how many of the Top 100 courses I can play, so that I can claim to be an authority for having played a course once.


BTW, does having walked a course count for anything? 

[Ryan Taylor]

Powder Magazine puts on an NCAA style tournament each year called Ski Town Throwdown, in which they come up with what they feel are the best 16 ski resorts per region in a 64 resort tournament. The magazine staff seeds the resorts and creates the initial matchup's but readers determine who advances. I proposed something similar to this in a different thread earlier this week, but now that the door is open to suggestions, I am going to propose it here.

Powder is truly a great publication. Long time subscriber. I can't believe Powder Mountain (Pow Mow) near Ogden or Brighton in SLC didn't get seeded. They should publish a first four out or include play in games! Powder Mountain and Brighton are the Lawsonia and/or Belvedere of ski resorts. (hard to call either a resort)

[Brad Tufts]

Sorry Mike...you aren't going to get too far on here analyzing courses you haven't seen.

I have learned this the hard way on GCA before...this is a well-traveled group, and even if you have pored over every square yard of PV and ANGC on google maps or TV, if you haven't been there you haven't been there.

I have not played (or visited) ANGC, and I have ideas on how I might like it/not like it someday, but I can't honestly say much before I see it/play it.

I have played PV, and it's pretty incredible.  It's not my #1 US course, but it's up there.  While both P#2 and PV have sandy wastes, they are quite different.  P#2 is very wide, with trees well back from the playing corridors, while every hole at PV is rather enclosed (which I hear they are working on changing!).  P#2 has recovery options all around each green, while PV is more penal around the greens.  P#2 has always been a resort course opened to those with a few bucks to spend...PV has always been a very private enclave with a secluded retreat feel, etc.

I doubt you will think PV is "just P#2 over rolling terrain" after you visit!

[V_Halyard]

How does Whistler only get a 4 seed!

Whistler at #4 is sandbagging... uh oh... we're trending OT.

[Eric LeFante]

I doubt you will think PV is "just P#2 over rolling terrain" after you visit!

I agree with Brad. I was lucky enough to play Pine Valley this year and was blown away. I haven't seen any course with more great holes than Pine Valley. It's like Tillinghast said, "A round of golf should present 18 inspirations. Every hole must have individuality." That is the definition of Pine Valley.

[Sven Nilsen]

I think the case for Pine Valley was made a long time ago, including when Donald Ross himself called Pine Valley, NGLA and the Lido the only three tests of open championship golf in the United States.


Of course, everyone is entitled to their own tastes and opinions.

[Mike Bodo]

Sorry Mike...you aren't going to get too far on here analyzing courses you haven't seen.

I have learned this the hard way on GCA before...this is a well-traveled group, and even if you have pored over every square yard of PV and ANGC on google maps or TV, if you haven't been there you haven't been there.

I have not played (or visited) ANGC, and I have ideas on how I might like it/not like it someday, but I can't honestly say much before I see it/play it.

I have played PV, and it's pretty incredible.  It's not my #1 US course, but it's up there.  While both P#2 and PV have sandy wastes, they are quite different.  P#2 is very wide, with trees well back from the playing corridors, while every hole at PV is rather enclosed (which I hear they are working on changing!).  P#2 has recovery options all around each green, while PV is more penal around the greens.  P#2 has always been a resort course opened to those with a few bucks to spend...PV has always been a very private enclave with a secluded retreat feel, etc.

I doubt you will think PV is "just P#2 over rolling terrain" after you visit!

Ponint well taken, Brad. I appreciate the constructive crticism.