Getting paid

[Thomas Dai]

I've heard that Alister MacKenzie never actually got paid for his work at ANGC. Is this correct and if so are there other examples of work being unpaid for or long delays before payment arrives. I imagine that receiving payment for work done overseas, and in some countries in particular, might be more difficult than in other places.
I'm NOT looking for personal examples here, that would highly inappropriate imo, but I would like know of examples from history/ODG's etc.
Atb

[Ian Andrew]

Tillinghast

Every place I've worked - where Tillie was involved - there's at least one letter asking to be paid.
I always assumed he lived beyond his means.


Thompson

I know Stanley Thompson went bankrupt at least twice, but we suspect there was one more time on top of that.
I've never seen any correspondence about his money issues other than amounts due on telegraph messages.

I know he stopped working at Highlands (2nd nine) in London and Ashburn (first nine) in Halifax over non-payment.
He was the builder as well as designer in both cases.
I know Halifax was a dispute over the end yardages of the holes (shorter than expected).

I seem to remember issues at the very end with Cataraqui in Kingston too.

There are lots of examples of Thompson bouncing checks (Moote), or not paying for long periods (Jones) which are recorded.
So those who worked for him suffered too.

[Mike Bodo]

Sorry to inject politics into this, but good luck getting paid what you're owed if you do design work on a Donald Trump course.    It's well documented that he stiffs people or extends them out as long as he can and makes them literally beg for their money. That said, I'd love to hear from anyone in the discussion group that has done work on any of his courses to to hear their horror stories, if any. Perhaps he treats golf course architects better than the contractors that work on his buildings - I dunno? Also, would any of the architects that frequent this board take on a Donald Trump golf course project if he approached them with it and if so, under what terms?

Love him or loathe him, the dude is a true golf fan and proponent of the sport. He owns some terrific properties and has sunk a lot of money in revitalizing many of them. That said, I can see him being a real pain in the ass to work for, but that's probably not uncommon in the industry.

[Mark Pearce]

I believe a member of this Forum is still owed money by a club in Fife.......

[Joe Hancock]

Sorry to inject politics into this, but good luck getting paid what you're owed if you do design work on a Donald Trump course.    It's well documented that he stiffs people or extends them out as long as he can and makes them literally beg for their money. That said, I'd love to hear from anyone in the discussion group that has done work on any of his courses to to hear their horror stories, if any. Perhaps he treats golf course architects better than the contractors that work on his buildings - I dunno? Also, would any of the architects that frequent this board take on a Donald Trump golf course project if he approached them with it and if so, under what terms?

Love him or loathe him, the dude is a true golf fan and proponent of the sport. He owns some terrific properties and has sunk a lot of money in revitalizing many of them. That said, I can see him being a real pain in the ass to work for, but that's probably not uncommon in the industry.

The only person I know who has personally done work for Trump in the golf business has been paid.

[Thomas Dai]

From history, yee olde times, please. Folks who are no longer with us rather than those still breathing.
Atb

[Mike Bodo]

Sorry to inject politics into this, but good luck getting paid what you're owed if you do design work on a Donald Trump course.    It's well documented that he stiffs people or extends them out as long as he can and makes them literally beg for their money. That said, I'd love to hear from anyone in the discussion group that has done work on any of his courses to to hear their horror stories, if any. Perhaps he treats golf course architects better than the contractors that work on his buildings - I dunno? Also, would any of the architects that frequent this board take on a Donald Trump golf course project if he approached them with it and if so, under what terms?

Love him or loathe him, the dude is a true golf fan and proponent of the sport. He owns some terrific properties and has sunk a lot of money in revitalizing many of them. That said, I can see him being a real pain in the ass to work for, but that's probably not uncommon in the industry.

The only person I know who has personally done work for Trump in the golf business has been paid.

Thanks for the reply and good to hear!

[Mike_Young]

Sorry to inject politics into this, but good luck getting paid what you're owed if you do design work on a Donald Trump course.    It's well documented that he stiffs people or extends them out as long as he can and makes them literally beg for their money. That said, I'd love to hear from anyone in the discussion group that has done work on any of his courses to to hear their horror stories, if any. Perhaps he treats golf course architects better than the contractors that work on his buildings - I dunno? Also, would any of the architects that frequent this board take on a Donald Trump golf course project if he approached them with it and if so, under what terms?

Love him or loathe him, the dude is a true golf fan and proponent of the sport. He owns some terrific properties and has sunk a lot of money in revitalizing many of them. That said, I can see him being a real pain in the ass to work for, but that's probably not uncommon in the industry.

Mike,
I would have zero problem working for him.
I don't know your occupation but I have seen plenty of contractors running around spouting some owner did not pay them etc and if you delved into most of the incidences you would find there was much more to it.  Many contractors don't read the specifics of contracts and then they don't document.  Let's say a contractor tells an owner he will have a project completed by a specific date and he is allowed 30 rain days w/o a daily penalty.  Say the daily penalty is $1000.  The contractor only documents half of his rain days and is 45 days past his completion date.  He owes the owner $30,000.  Let's say a contractor is paid to lay sod by the sq. ft. and he has a fairway with 250,000 sq. ft. in it.  The contract says he is paid by the measured fairway area and yet he bills based on how many truckloads of sod were delivered.  He only gets paid for the measured area.  The best one I have ever had was where the contractor was being paid for cart paths by the square yard he laid based on measured footage.  He was laying much of the path at 5 and 6 inch depth which was making his concrete usage increase.  He wanted to prove his pricing based on how many yards were used.  No way.  Every single one of these things end with a contractor mad at the owner and the architect in many cases.  I would wager many of the construction issues related to Donald Trump are similar.  In the end contractor can lien within a specific period and argue his points. 
I would love to know more of the Trump specifics....betting much of it is gray area....he could not remain in business if he were doing such constantly.

AND the incident that was always on TV of the clubhouse architect who did not get paid by DT...did anyone note that the clubhouse cost 4 times what the architect estimated?  Got to be a lot more to that tale....

[Mike Bodo]

Great reply, Mike! I both appreciate and concurr with your comments.

[Tom_Doak]

Robert Trent Jones told me personally that the reason he and Stanley Thompson's partnership ended was when Thompson wanted him to go to Brazil in the 30's, Mr. Jones demurred, because he was afraid Thompson would never get him the money to get back from down there.  He said Thompson could get a design check "and spend it all the same evening."


Augusta were not the only ones who were in arrears to MacKenzie during the Depression.  When he passed away in 1934, his estate tried to collect fees from 3-4 past due clients, including The Ohio State University, which responded that they had never been sent the completed set of plans.  A few weeks later, someone sent the greens plans, and the university sent some money to MacKenzie's widow.  It's not entirely clear if Dr. MacKenzie had done all the greens plans or if someone finished them for him posthumously.


However, there is a difference between having to write letters regarding collections, and actually getting stiffed by clients.  We have to issue "reminders" more often than you would imagine, even to some fairly prominent clubs.


Likewise, any of us who were busy at the time of the financial crisis are likely to have had one or two clients stop paying cold turkey, as I did.  Hard to blame them too much when they'd put several million dollars into something that's now blowing in the wind.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sorry to inject politics into this, but good luck getting paid what you're owed if you do design work on a Donald Trump course.    It's well documented that he stiffs people or extends them out as long as he can and makes them literally beg for their money. That said, I'd love to hear from anyone in the discussion group that has done work on any of his courses to to hear their horror stories, if any. Perhaps he treats golf course architects better than the contractors that work on his buildings - I dunno? Also, would any of the architects that frequent this board take on a Donald Trump golf course project if he approached them with it and if so, under what terms?

Love him or loathe him, the dude is a true golf fan and proponent of the sport. He owns some terrific properties and has sunk a lot of money in revitalizing many of them. That said, I can see him being a real pain in the ass to work for, but that's probably not uncommon in the industry.

The only person I know who has personally done work for Trump in the golf business has been paid.

Same. Don't believe there was any issue. In fact, I was told that Trump was one of his easiest clients to work for.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Most architects complain about it. I have been lucky, I guess. If there were a big payment miss early in a career, it could end before it got started.


A well known PGA Tour pro (not one I ever completed a course with) stiffed me my $5000 routing plan fee in 1984 (first year in Biz)


A small time driving range developer stiffed me about the same a few years later.


An Asian Client stiffed me $45,000 in 1990, but I was working at twice my normal fee, it was the end of the project, and so really, I still did okay, but $45K is still real money to me.....


A Seattle based developer stiffed me on a Texas Project about 2000, for $120,000, and I sued, went to  mediation, and finally got paid $16,000 after lawyers fees.


In China last year, I did very honorably get paid in full, despite the projects being stopped by the government.  Only problem was, those Chinese contracts are so back loaded compared to what is typical here that it really didn't cover my expenses. There wasn't any profit....


My point in detailing these from memory is that it hurts and we remember every time we take that kind of loss on a project.  I am sure it hurt Mac and others, too.  Excluding a few big names, most architects understand the old small biz phrase that most are just 90 days from bankruptcy.  When you are in a fee based business, cash flow is king, and there often isn't much room to spare, like most small businesses in America.

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's a list of possible claims the MacKenzie Estate was pursuing.  More than 3-4 clients.

April 3, 1935 Santa Cruz Sentinel -

[Eric LeFante]

Really great stories, thank you to all.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Wow, using the same inflation calculator that I used in the other thread, Mac dies with $518 ( about $9K in today's dollars) and quantified claims of over $6,100, which is about $107K today, plus some claims they can't substantiate....or who can't pay because they had gone out of business. $2,000 from ANGC alone....


Golf architects didn't get rich back then......nor do most of us now!


The old joke about making a million in golf design...by starting with $2 Million was probably around then, perhaps substituting $100,000 and $200,000....

[BCrosby]

Sven -

Interesting. I did not know that fees owed to Mack by ANGC had been reduced to four promissory notes of $500 each. Those notes, like others received by creditors at the time, would have been signed by Robert Tyre Jones, Jr., the club president.

My understanding is that ANGC entered into a receivership not long after MacK's death. He was among many creditors of the club who were not paid at all or paid only a part of their claim. I don't know the details of the settlements. It's possible the proceeding was kept informal and not filed with the Superior Court in Richmond County. I have wanted for a long time to spend a day or two in the bowels of the the Richmond County courthouse to see what might be there.

For you lawyers in the room, one of the leading cases in GA on the law of negotiable instruments involved a note signed by Bob Jones on behalf of ANGC that was issued in 1934 or 35 to an unpaid supplier of irrigation pipe who had subsequently negotiated the ANGC note to a third party.

Bob   

[Mike_Young]

Bob,
What was the name of the company supplying the pipe...

[BCrosby]

Mike -


I don't remember. I'll have to check my files at home.


Bob

[Tom Allen]

McWane Cast Iron Pipe Company.

(Case is at 72 Ga. App. 161, 33 S.E.2d 528, for anyone who cares to read the decision).

[RickV]

Link to decision: http://legaliq.com/Case/McWane_Cast_Iron_Pipe_Co_V_Barrett

[Jim Nugent]

Sven -

Interesting. I did not know that fees owed to Mack by ANGC had been reduced to four promissory notes of $500 each. Those notes, like others received by creditors at the time, would have been signed by Robert Tyre Jones, Jr., the club president.

My understanding is that ANGC entered into a receivership not long after MacK's death. He was among many creditors of the club who were not paid at all or paid only a part of their claim. 

I thought Bob himself was wealthy at the time.  Do you know if that's so?

[BCrosby]

Bob Jones was quite wealthy at the time. But Cliff Roberts had insisted from the get-go that Jones would not be asked to underwrite any of ANGC's expenses. It seemed to be a matter of pride that their new club would support itself, even though it had opened at a time when the US economy was on its back.


Their decision to host an "Invitational" tournament was to some extent a matter of survival.


Bob