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Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
The pin sheet. How much detail?
« on: August 16, 2017, 09:21:52 PM »
Over the past few years Kyle Franz at Mid Pines and Pine Needles has minimized rough and maximized width while additionally adding new pin locations. On a substantial number of holes it is now of strategic importance to know where on the green the pin is located.   As in years past the only designations on the pin sheet are front, middle and back; not much help on today's courses where a blind drive to the right side of the fairway unveils a back right pin that is all but in accessible .
I understand that 3 positions may be all that is necessary where a 30 yard fairway corridor is in play but how much detail is needed where 50+ yards is the norm?
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 10:37:37 PM »
Maybe they should just put Kyle's cell number on the scorecard so you can call him up and ask where to hit it on every hole.

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2017, 07:02:27 AM »
If Kyle knew where the grounds crew put the pin each day I think that would that  be a wonderful solution and a great way to expand golfers understanding of strategy.
However, now you hit your drive over the hill only to find that you have picked the wrong side. What is the value of strategy if the set up shot is a random value.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2017, 08:06:41 AM »
The first time I played Muirfield, I was by myself and behind a couple of slow American groups, and when I got to the 11th hole I decided to walk up the hill to see where the flag was before hitting my tee shot, and to slow myself down a little.  [I was something like 1:20 into my round, and I'd caught the last group that teed off the 10th, half an hour later than I'd teed off #1.] 


The flag was left, so I played my tee shot well out to the right ... and as I got up the hill again, the greenkeeper was just finishing cutting the new day's hole on the right side of the green.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 08:43:48 AM »
Tom,


You're strangely dismissive of the value of placing (or at least trying to place) the tee shot correctly...or maybe you're just having a little fun!?!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 09:40:12 AM »
 8)  How about a scale outline picture of the green (so I can draw slopes and breaks after first play or see) and give me depth as a template..


and then just tell me plus or minus from the center...  good enough to figure whether a draw or fade is needed... execution is another thing, like leaving it short of trouble seen
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Blake Conant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 10:08:37 AM »
If Kyle knew where the grounds crew put the pin each day I think that would that  be a wonderful solution and a great way to expand golfers understanding of strategy.
However, now you hit your drive over the hill only to find that you have picked the wrong side. What is the value of strategy if the set up shot is a random value.


Shouldn't you be hedging your bets at that point?  Aiming for a spot in the fairway that allows access to either pin, albeit not the ideal access you're seeking.  That would be the strategic play given the information you have at hand.


And that's what we're talking about, how much information should you be privy to?  In my opinion, it's in 95% of golfers best interests to not be crippled by too much information. 

BCowan

Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2017, 10:33:17 AM »
Blake,

   Great post.  As a curmudgeon I don't use a range finder.  I'm more interested in how the ball will react to the ground.  People need to know too much and there is no sense of wonder out there. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:23:54 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2017, 02:21:54 PM »
Tom,

You're strangely dismissive of the value of placing (or at least trying to place) the tee shot correctly...or maybe you're just having a little fun!?!


Jim:


I was trying to be dismissive of the idea that a course must provide complete, detailed instructions on how every hole ought best be played, changing daily for newcomers and new hole locations.


To me, some or a lot of this is the golfer's job.  [Or the caddie's job.]  In the old days, the sheep didn't tell you the flag was located in a hollow and a bit further away than it looked.  Nowadays, people want yardages and rangefinders and detailed yardage books and maps of greens, and all that apparently still wasn't enough for Jay in his opening post.


Jay asked, what is the value of strategy if the set up shot is a random value?  My question is, what is the value of strategy if we tell you exactly where to go?

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 04:29:09 PM »
How long before a drone is permanently flying over the player transmitting all sorts of information back to the player as to what's ahead on the hole, wind data etc and there's a Trackman type gadget that fits onto your bag/trolley/buggy that details even more information.
Outside influences maybe.....but a few years ago folks thought this was the case with rangefinders and the like. 'Progress' can sometimes be a strange beast.
Once-upon-a-time the 15th club, the one between the ears, really mattered. Not so much the case these days. Sad really.
Atb
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 04:33:11 PM by Thomas Dai »

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 04:56:16 PM »

Jay asked, what is the value of strategy if the set up shot is a random value?  My question is, what is the value of strategy if we tell you exactly where to go?
Tom,
I envision a strategically-placed bunker at the top of the hill on the right side of the fairway that will come into play if the golfer is attempting to get best possible access to a back left pin position. Of course the bunker is strategically placed only if the golfer knows where the pin is. If he doesn't know he would best follow Blake's recommendation that he hit it down the middle of the fairway and not take on trouble for the sake of taking on trouble.
Strategy does not dictate where you play the ball it tempts you to play the ball in order to gain advantage.
@MickleStix on Instagram
MickleStix.com

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2017, 07:55:47 PM »
This is a very interesting question/debate to me. How much information does a player deserve / need / want?


I hope the thread gets some traction.


Of course it's the golfers job. I kind of feel like everything is. So maybe that's it.


Although...I've always felt the primary goal of the architect should be to entice, not so much deceive. To encourage, not so much confuse.


Maybe it's the softer game with higher expectations that we play today!?!




Peter Pallotta

Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 09:21:04 PM »
I see Jay's point, ie if we value and promote 50 yard wide fairways and meaningful (as opposed to directional or eye candy) bunkering, we must value and promote them for a reason -- and the only meaningful reason is because they create interesting and challenging dynamics & relationships between the tee shot, the approach shot, the green contours and the various  hazards and recovery options of the surrounds. So: knowing where the pin is that day seems to me essential in, let's say, 'actualizing' all the potential strategies the architect has created. Indeed, I'd say that knowing where the hole is cut that day is the *only* thing that actualizes that strategy, and so is the only piece of information a golfer needs or 'deserves' or should want.
BUT: in this softer and more pampered version of the game we play today (compared to the average golfer in the 1920s who tackled 6400 yards courses with hickories and haskells and routinely shot 100), there is indeed so much *additional* aids and signs and signifiers being provided golfers every step of the way that I can understand someone like Tom saying: 'Every once in a while I'd prefer that you do *without* that information. Maybe on some holes you'll be pleasantly/unpleasantly  surprised; maybe on other holes your eyes will need to be good enough to get your own answer from way back on the tee; maybe on some holes you'll be able to get the information for, say, the 5th green while you're walking up the 3rd fairway, or you'll look for the 9th green while you wait on the 7th tee. In short: relish rhe challenge, man!"
I understand that perspective too -- though I'd suggest that if the goal is to encourage golfers to embrace the spirit of discovery and the challenge of the game, we might do that better by having only two sets of tees and building savagely deep bunkers and creating severely contoured greens than by not telling golfers where the pins are cut that day.
Peter
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 09:24:40 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 09:32:44 PM »
If a course has 1 blind tee shot out of 14 or so, do we provide a pin sheet for all 18 holes, or just the one?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Peter Pallotta

Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 09:44:02 PM »
You're a clever one, Joe Hancock (and that's *not* a compliment!  :) )
How about if there are 8 blind or dogleg or uphill or downhill or long Par 5 tee shots? Do we let golfers 'figure out' more than half of the shots on their own (and give undue advantage to the members?)
You could always, on the pin sheet, have the greens divided into 4 numbered quadrants (with the numbers representing different areas on the various greens) and say: Monday and Wednesday we play the No 1 position, Tuesday and Thursday No 2, Friday No 3, and Saturday and Sunday No 4.
If having such a pin sheet meant that I'd have to accept a total ban on rangefinders and yardage stakes and 5 sets of tees and shallow/directional bunkers and a predominance of short Par 4s etc, I'd take the pin sheet.
Peter
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 09:55:51 PM by Peter Pallotta »

BCowan

Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 10:12:43 PM »
If having such a pin sheet meant that I'd have to accept a total ban on rangefinders and yardage stakes and 5 sets of tees and shallow/directional bunkers and a predominance of short Par 4s etc, I'd take the pin sheet

+1

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2017, 10:23:03 PM »
 8) Isn't the reality of golf that every round is an adventure with or without a pin sheet or other aid, amateur or pro, major or minor venue.. All that's needed is some simple local knowledge, as there'll never be a level playing ground between golfers... even Joe mentioning that that right edge of fairway boundary is OB!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 11:57:18 PM »
We have pin sheets at our course with the length of the green and how many yards the pin is from the front.  I think it is a little overkill as most of the time we just want to know front/middle/back.  However, if we switch to just Front/Middle/Back I would guess a lot of folks would fuss.


Paul
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The pin sheet. How much detail?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2017, 03:42:34 AM »
If a course has 1 blind tee shot out of 14 or so, do we provide a pin sheet for all 18 holes, or just the one?


The blind green 14th at Cruden Bay used to have (does it still?) a grass fronted box by the men's tee that indicated on a wee map of the green and surrounds where the pin was that day. No other holes had this.


With regard to the yardage markers thread, perhaps pin sheets should say something like "This pin sheet is sponsored by ........ & .........., opticians." :)


atb

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