America's Great 18s

[Josh Tarble]

8th Hole:
Streamsong Red.  Absolutely one of the best par 5s I've played.  I love the inverted bunker and how it influences play.

That's the 7th.  The 8th is the little par-3.

Correct, thanks. I always get those mixed up. 

[Jason Way]

Thanks all for continuing to share your thoughts and nominations.  Getting some others on Twitter and Instagram.  I'll compile them at the end.

[Jason Way]

The 9th on our Modern Great 18 is Erin Hills #9, a par-3.

I'm not sure if it is possible for a hole to look windy, but if so, this one-shotter does.  The green is beautifully set, floating in a sea of fescue, and is surrounded by artful bunkers.  The putting surface is big, but it plays smaller because it is divided into two sections by a trough.  Playing safely to the center of the green leaves the player with the potential for a real putting adventure.











Our runners-up – Friars Head, Crooked Stick, Honors Course, Streamsong Red, Streamsong Blue, Old Macdonald

[Sven Nilsen]

No. 

[Tom_Doak]

The ninth at Old Macdonald?  Who nominated that, one of my co-designers?


The ninth at Friars Head and the ninth at Streamsong (Red) are two of the most severe greens Bill Coore has ever done.  I love both of them, and would hate to have to choose between them.  But I keep wondering why Bill can build greens like those, and nobody labels him as one who builds crazy greens?  My crew all thought the one at Streamsong was more severe than anything we built there.

[Thomas Dai]

Some terrific looking holes here. Thanks for posting and debating. Most interesting.


I can't help thinking though about how difficult the greens (green complexes) seem.


Makes me think of the discussion on these two recent threads -


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64005.0.html - "Difficult greens are the key to building a great golf course"
&
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64007.0.html - "Don't design from a position of fear"


Atb

[Alex Miller]

No.

Post of the year so far 

[John Kirk]

Interesting choice.  The 9th hole at Erin Hills is very short, only 143 yards when the course is played at 6700 yards (165 when played at 7800).  It is a very convex green complex; everything not in the center of the green goes downhill somewhere.  It will only be a 8-iron or 9-iron for the pros this year, but I'm guessing it will have a relatively high scoring average for its size (3.1 - 3.2).  I'll guess I withhold judgment until we see the pros play it this June.

I'll put my two cents in for Stone Eagle's 9th hole, when played from the original back tee, from which you tee off over the 8th green (418 yards, way downhill), or from the short alternate tee box next to the 8th green (about 310 yards, still downhill).  The other commonly used tee boxes are aligned further right, a different angle which I consider a significant downgrade.

The cant of the 9th green fools the first time visitor more than any other I've seen.  The green looks pretty flat, tucked into one of the course's natural rock piles, but it slopes hard from front right to back left.  The prevailing slope of the land is well hidden here, and short shots around the green sometimes yield embarrassing misjudgements.

I include Stone Eagle #9 for its beauty and as an example of a mountainside green that baffles the first time player.  It's a medium difficult hole.

This photo was taken by ace photographer Larry Lambrecht.

[Jason Way]

The ninth at Old Macdonald?  Who nominated that, one of my co-designers?

Can't remember whether it was Peter or Jon, but knowing Jon's love of a good Cape hole, my guess would be that that was a Jon nomination.

[Jason Way]

No.

Are you sure?

[Jason Way]

That is a beautiful photo, and hole, John.  Thank you for pitching it in to the pot.

[Sven Nilsen]

No.

Are you sure?

Jason:


Yes.


The 9th at Erin Hills was originally a throw away bye hole, not even part of the 18 hole course.  Its a fairly one-dimensional par 3, a hit the green or else shot.  Its no where close to being the best hole on the course, which I would think would have to be the case for any hole on your list.  The setting is nice, but certainly nothing worthy of promoting it over the many, many other viable options.


There are too many other "great" 9th holes out there.  That the 9th at Bandon Trails hasn't entered the conversation is a miss.  If you were looking specifically for a par 3 in this slot, the 9th at Chambers Bay presents much more interest than the hole you selected.  I'm also a fan of the 9th at Blackstone in Phoenix, but there's a hole later in the course which would be my preferred nomination for that course. 


I like the idea of this thread, but it seems like the frame of reference you started with is too small to be convincing.  Perhaps my issue is with how you've titled the list, as "America's Great 18's."  "18 Holes from Courses in America that Three Guys Liked" would have been a bit more accurate.  Or in turn, you could have thrown out the nomination process to the whole group to see what might have resulted from expanding the panel beyond the three guys who haven't even seen every modern course out there worthy of inclusion.


Just my thoughts,


Sven

[John Kirk]

I will second Sven's nomination of the 9th hole at Bandon Trails, which is one of my favorites on the course.  It's the only hole on the course that feels like you are in the tall Douglas firs, so its appearance is somewhat unique for the course.  In addition to possessing great beauty, it has a wonderful second shot.  The landing area gradually narrows from 100-160 yards away.  Also, long drives tempt a second shot to the green, and there's a big bailout area left of the green, which allows some nifty short grass, short shots.   

[Jason Way]

Alrighty, here is where we stand thus far...

We have determined that Sven does not want to be the fourth in a group with Jon, Peter and me.  Pity.  We are good company.

Beyond that, I have compiled the nominations from commenters here, Twitter, and Instagram.  The front nine is below - our pick, and then the alternatives (our runners-up are *ed).  I invite and encourage you to create a Modern outward nine that is greater than ours from the choices below, or add other holes from your playing experience.  Remember the 2 rules (if you care to follow them): 1) you have to have played the course, and 2) only one hole per course. 

If you really want to be a superstar, take into account balance of difficulty and the flow of the holes vis a vis par, uphill/downhill, direction, etc. and share the thinking behind each of your selections.

Looking back on the front nine that we did, I can see that we tended to pick difficult holes, although that was not conscious on our part.  What was conscious was avoiding holes that were boring in favor of those that were memorable and thrilling to play.  Especially given that we have only played some of these courses once, Tom's observation that the holes that stand out tend toward the extreme of design was astute.

Anywho, without further ado, the front nine compilation:

#1 - Sand Hills
Alternatives - Apache Stronghold*, Ballyneal, Bayside, Boston Golf Club*, Dunes Club, Kingsley, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue*, Spyglass, Sweetens Cove, Tobacco Road, Wolf Run

#2 - Sebonack
Alternatives - Apache Stronghold*, Ballyhack, Ballyneal, Bandon Preserve, Boston GC, Desert Forest, Dismal Red, Erin Hills*, Harbour Town, Hidden Creek, Kingsley Club*, Kinloch, Lost Dunes*, Old MacDonald*, Old Sandwich, Pacific Dunes, Rock Creek, Rustic Canyon, Sand Valley*, Snake River Sporting Club, Streamsong Blue*, Spyglass, Stone Eagle, Talking Stick North*, Wolf Point

#3 - Bandon Trails
Alternatives - Arcadia Bluffs*, Ballyneal*, Black Forest*, Boston Golf Club*, Colorado GC*, CommonGround*, Erin Hills*, Kiawah Ocean, Mauna Kea, Old Macdonald*, Pacific Dunes*, Sand Valley*, Spyglass Hill*, Wade Hampton*

#4 - Bandon Dunes
Alternatives - Dismal White, Dunes Club*, Old Sandwich*, Pacific Dunes*, Sand Hills*, Spyglass Hill*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Sweetens Cove, World Woods Pine Barrens

#5 - Boston Golf Club
Alternatives - Arcadia Bluffs, Bandon Dunes*, Cuscowilla, Old Sandwich*, Streamsong Blue*, Sweetens Cove*

#6 - Marquette Greywalls
Alternatives - Apache Stronghold*, Bandon Dunes*, Crooked Stick, Kinloch, Old Macdonald*, Old Sandwich*, Pacific Dunes*, Pikewood National*, Streamsong Blue*, The Golf Club, Wade Hampton*, Whistling Straits*

#7 - Old Macdonald
Alternatives - Ballyneal*, Bandon Dunes*, Crooked Stick, Desert Forest*, Dunes Club*, Harbor Shores*, Old Sandwich*, Sand Hills, Sand Valley*,  Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*

#8 - Ballyneal
Alternatives - Bandon Trails*, CommonGround*, French Creek*, Old Macdonald, Pronghorn Fazio, Sand Hills*, Sweetens Cove*, The Rawls Course*

#9 - Erin Hills
Alternatives - Bandon Trails, Blackstone, Boston GC, Chambers Bay, Crooked Stick*, Friars Head*, Honors Course*, Old Macdonald*, Streamsong Blue*, Streamsong Red*, Stone Eagle


Modern Back Nine, coming soon...

[Sven Nilsen]

We have determined that Sven does not want to be the fourth in a group with Jon, Peter and me.  Pity.  We are good company.

Jason:


I think you're taking my criticism a bit too personally. 


Sven

[Peter Korbakes]

Regarding the 6th--
Tom, I've played Crooked Stick before and completely agree that it's an awesome hole, it just did not pop into my mind because I was so enthused over Pacific and Old Mac. The 6th at Crooked Stick I don't think is any better than the runner ups that Jason mentioned. Visually, sure, it's incredible. It's a solid hole in my opinion but I don't think it's one that is clearly more discussed than others in gca in general. And I realize the same of Greywalls, but I had not played it so I had no objections really. Personally my favorite modern 6th that I have played I would say has to be Pacific. I don't think there is anything cooler than a hole with a short approach that deathly intimidates the golfer. In my opinion, it's the only way a scratch player is as scared as the 18 handicap. I like to see these holes as they are immune from technological advances. Example, I think the 3rd at Fishers is a near perfect golf hole. It will never be overrun by technology given the known death you will face if you miss the green on the 2nd shot. Pretty much the same with the 10th


I think it's important to realize these lists were comprised of simply the courses that Jason, Jon, and myself have played.


Regarding the 9th, I think it's fascinating watching a golfer have to step up and hit a 140 yard shot. It's a do-don't. What is so different about this hole than the 6th at Roaring Gap which more or less is the same concept and gets a bunch of love from the likes of Ran? I also think that it is very cool that the 9th at EH is the only untouched hole since inception on property. Am I an Erin Hills lover? No. But I had always wanted to despise the place given its modernism and the fact I heard it was unbearable to walk. But after playing 36 out there, I liked it. The line I used was, "it's a course i really didnt want to like but walked away saying this is a place i don't mind in small doses." Not to mention, for a U.S. Open, I think it;s going to be awesome to watch given how many options they have.


As for other options for the 9th, I loved all the runner ups. I haven't played FH although I think SS-R SS-B OM crooked stick and honors are all really architectural stimulating holes.


Maybe it should've been branded more as "18 holes from cool courses which 3 guys have played". It's 22 degrees outside here, Jason had a cool idea, just trying to spark up some conversation.

[Jason Way]

I think you're taking my criticism a bit too personally. 

Not at all.  Looking forward to more of your nominations. 

[Jason Thurman]

Honestly, the more "definitive" you try to get with concepts like this, the less interesting the threads become. Sure, if someone wanted to find the 18 best holes on modern courses, you'd get a more representative sampling by expanding beyond a group of three guys who "haven't seen every modern course worthy of inclusion," whatever that means. But then we'd also just end up talking about the same damn holes and courses that we always talk about, and that thread would be boring as hell right up until the point at which it devolved into a shouting match because some doofus is actually convinced that he's objectively correct about what the best 9th hole on a modern course in the world is. And yeah, Twitter Club Atlas would get a kick out of it and I'd get a kick out of that, but I get a much bigger kick out of threads that make me facepalm for the right reasons instead of the wrong ones.


The 9th at Erin Hills? Yeah, I facepalmed when I read it. But for the right reasons, which is to say "Because it made me want to discuss architecture rather than bitch and catfight."


Because as much as I love Erin Hills, and as much as I even love the 9th hole and think it's a legitimately excellent if somewhat overly diabolical par 3, for all the reasons that Jason's post mentioned, I just can't believe that the 9th would be the right answer from Erin Hills if we're limited to one hole from each course in this exercise. The 12th and 15th are two of the coolest par 4s in the world - after several visits to the property I still don't know the "right way" to play either one, and I think that's reflective of great design. I also think they both feature some of the coolest glaciated terrain on a course whose calling card is awesome glaciated terrain. The 9th, as good a hole as it is, could have been replicated in concept on any property that had a 150-ish yard downhill shot waiting to be incorporated into the routing at some point. But the 12th/15th really sum up the Erin Hills experience in a nutshell, aside from their lack of length. And even that tells us something about the Erin Hills experience, as does the inclusion of the 2nd hole as an also-ran and the 9th hole in the Great 18 list. Four of the best holes on an impossibly long and tough course happen to be holes that are more sporty and confounding than legitimately brutal. And that says something about what Erin Hills does right, and also what Erin Hills does wrong. The balance between the good and bad has always been the most fascinating part of Erin Hills for me even if I didn't realize it, and this little exercise made that revelation clear in a way that it hadn't been before. And revelations like that don't happen when we're discussing the same old holes on the same old courses that we always discuss when we get into the same old threads that ask us to pretend personal preferences, biases, and experiences don't exist and to instead focus on the most objectively "correct" answers we can come up with.


Even though Erin Hills' 9th is a really good hole, I'm not sure that it's the best 9th hole on a modern course in Wisconsin. I'd give that nod to Blackwolf Run River. Like the 9th at Erin Hills, it's a really cool short hole. The similarities stop there though. Blackwolf's 9th is cool because it presents so many options without just presenting an open canvas for any old braindead duffer to whack his Kirkland ball across without thinking. The 9th at Erin Hills doesn't really present an option - you pretty much know what you need to do even if you may not be fully aware of the consequences for different degrees of failure to execute. The 9th at Blackwolf presents between 3 and 5 legitimate options to a fairly competent player, but it forces him to think them through and commit to one in a way that most option-laden holes don't. And in that way, it sums up the Blackwolf Run River experience. It's a sporty hole that has some clear risk/reward implications and gives you all the rope you need to reach the pinnacle, whether you choose to do it by scaling a cliff or walking up a gentle incline, but it also gives you enough to hang yourself on the way up.

[Rob Collins]

Jason,
Did you all give consideration to some of the holes on the Red Course at Dismal? It's very strong out of the gate, in my opinion.

[Jason Way]

Fantastic post, Jason.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts.


Good to finally hear from you PGKorbs.

Rob, none of us have played Dismal Red (I'm almost positive about that).  Are any of the holes our there better than the front nine we selected?  And if so, why?  Very interested to hear your perspective.

[James Brown]

The ninth at Old Macdonald?  Who nominated that, one of my co-designers?


The ninth at Friars Head and the ninth at Streamsong (Red) are two of the most severe greens Bill Coore has ever done.  I love both of them, and would hate to have to choose between them.  But I keep wondering why Bill can build greens like those, and nobody labels him as one who builds crazy greens?  My crew all thought the one at Streamsong was more severe than anything we built there.

I think the 9th at SS Red is not that severe compared to several others,  Number 1 on Red is tougher.  And Bandon Trails has several greens that are more severe. 

[Jason Way]

After a quick stop for modern golf's best halfway house snack (Streamsong BBQ), we are back with the 10th on our Modern Great 18, Chambers Bay #10, a par-4.

There several things about this hole that we think are great.  First, the view from this tee is magnificent.  It is a feast for the eyes with the large, flanking dunes and Puget Sound beyond.  Amidst all of the earthmoving that went into creating Chambers Bay, the fact that this beautiful hole was basically found adds to its mystique.

For those of you more inclined toward the left brain, the 10th provides plenty of strategic options to turn the gears.  Send the drive down the right to get closer, and sacrifice the best angle of approach into the diagonally set green?  Or lay back down the left for a better angle, but a longer approach?  To add further interest, the green can be approached on the ground by using the front-left slope that will feed well-judged balls all the way to back-right pin positions.

And finally, we are suckers for detail and this green, with cool contours, bunkers, stairs, and paths is right up our alley.  I don't love every hole at Chambers Bay, but this one is the total package.







Our runners-up - Colorado GC, Boston Golf Club, Harbor Shores, WeKoPa Saguaro, Pacific Dunes, Ballyhack

[Rob Collins]

Fantastic post, Jason.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts.


Good to finally hear from you PGKorbs.

Rob, none of us have played Dismal Red (I'm almost positive about that).  Are any of the holes our there better than the front nine we selected?  And if so, why?  Very interested to hear your perspective.

I really like the fourth on the Red. I think its one of the best holes in the Sand Hills.  There are multiple options off of the tee, and each route has its positives & negatives.  When you add the shifting winds, it amounts to a hole that rarely plays the same from one round to the next.  On the tee, you'll find yourself working your way through the various scenarios in your mind as you weigh the best option.  Being a sucker for trying to gain an advantage off the tee, I found that it was an irresistible temptation to try to get it close to the green when it was playing downwind.  Of course, you bring a big number into play by trying to squeeze it into the neck in front of the green, but that is a big part of the fun of the hole.  Overall, it has everything to like in a golf hole: options, width, strategy, a great green setting, and an ability to change complexion from round to round.

[Jason Way]

Interesting little nugget re: Chambers Bay that Jay Blasi just tweeted to me:

"For clarification, 10 was entirely created, not found. The fairway is a giant (20-40') cut through a "sand" stockpile. Hit clay layer in cut."

The lore surrounding the creation of the hole debunked by the man who had a hand in creating it.

[Kalen Braley]

I love the 10th hole at chambers Bay.


Manufactured or found, doesn't matter much to me.  The hole is thrilling both visually and to play! And the walk off the back of the green to have everything open up again works well to boot.  It just might be might favorite hole at CB.