News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2017, 10:37:25 PM »
It seems to me, the 13th at PD is just flat out high on almost any measure.  Drama, beauty, interest, exhilarating, etc. Tom would have been crazy to change much there...

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #126 on: January 15, 2017, 10:40:24 PM »

So, it's the same question I ask about my courses as a whole:  am I always inspired to do my very best work when I'm right next to the ocean, and I'm just not as inspired when I'm inland?  Or is the oceanfront just worth ten points on a 100-point scale?


I don't know. I've played a lot of shitty holes that happened to be near an ocean.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #127 on: January 15, 2017, 10:56:59 PM »
John puts back of hand on forehead, a la Karnak The Magnificent:  "New thread idea — Shitty Oceanside Holes."

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #128 on: January 15, 2017, 11:05:21 PM »

But there are lots and lots of holes that offer that same sort of strategy, aren't there?  I don't believe this hole has much more nuance than a lot of those other holes. 

This is an interesting observation and brought my mind back to the 2nd hole at Talking Stick North.  Although that hole is a par-5, those of us who love it, love it for essentially the same reason.  It is a straight shot down the left that gains advantage, with plenty of room out to the right that leaves a MUCH harder approach.  This is simple and sound strategy, but these holes stick out for us perhaps because the elements are memorable.  In the case of TSN, the barbed wire fence and OB beyond replace the Pacific Ocean, and an excellent set of bunkers short right on the testy little green replace your giant dune.  Without those unique and memorable features, great holes become good holes. 



This is part of what I was hoping we would start to tease out in this thread.  As much as I like making lists, the exercise is much more about contemplating why we think or feel certain holes are great.  That's why I am truly interested not just to know which holes you think are better than the ones we chose, but why.
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts fellas. 
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #129 on: January 15, 2017, 11:25:47 PM »
Such is the power of the ocean to intimidate.  The best angle into the elevated green is gained by taking a line as close to the cliff as possible.  It is a real "hike up your knickers" moment in a round at PD.  There is plenty of room to bail out right, but that position brings bunkers, and the enormous dune right of the green into play.


No beef with the pick here, but I don't agree with the method of play you've prescribed.  The best angle of play is from the middle of the fairway or straight at the flag, not near the cliff (you can get away with a shot over there, but there really isn't any reward for being that far left).  Part of the visual deception here is that off of the tee the middle of the fairway looks like its out to the right, and when you throw in people's tendency to take trouble out of play, they steer themselves even further right.


In the summer, you want to be taking the wind dead on, both off of the tee and on the approach (anything too far left will keep going left, same on the right).  Occasionally you'll take the shorter hitters out to the right, but that  pretty much turns it into a three shot hole for them with the layup being back to the left.  And if you think about the angles, you're actually playing away from the dune if you're out on the right side.


In the winter, you want the runway off the back of the green in your line of play for anything that runs out too far.  Too far to either side and you're looking at running into the back right bunker or running over the cliff edge off the back left.


I agree with Tom that there are more strategic holes on the course.  The play here is pretty much always two shots straight at the flag, and hope you get a little luck if you get a bit of sidespin on the ball.  But whether you are with or against the wind, those are not easy shots.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 11:27:30 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #130 on: January 16, 2017, 12:48:07 AM »
John puts back of hand on forehead, a la Karnak The Magnificent:  "New thread idea — Shitty Oceanside Holes."


And the envelope contains...


The 18th at Trump National LA.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Peter Pallotta

Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #131 on: January 16, 2017, 12:30:21 PM »
Tom wondered if there aren't a lot of holes that offer similar strategies. I wonder if, from the golfer's perspective, that's at all important, or if it's even a relevant question. The in-the-moment *experience* at PD is clearly exhilarating for all who play it; could it be experienced that way if 'strategic similarities' were actually a strength/weakness or postive/negative in gca? Tom's is indeed a legitimate question for a committed craftsman to ask, but I think it points to a fact that many craftsman/writers/artists come to discover, ie the better the work the more room there is for the audience to have its own experience of the work and so the less control that craftsman has on that multitude of personal/subjective reactions. It is only mediocre work that tries to anticipate/create a uniform experience and then manages to achieve it. A Big Mac, remarkably, tastes exactly the same in every corner of the world, and to every one who has ever satisfied their craving for one.

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #132 on: January 16, 2017, 09:19:09 PM »
The 14th on our Modern Great 18 is Friar's Head #14, a par-5.

The fourteenth subtly snakes, switches back, and rolls uphill to a green that is set in perhaps the coolest natural amphitheater on planet golf - a giant dune ridge.  The green itself is large and its triangular shape allows for several testy pin positions that demand consideration all the way back to the tee.

And although it is entirely irrelevant to the strategy and play of the hole, FH #14 is capped off with GCA's coolest staircase for the triumphant players to proudly ascend and the defeated players to crawl up on hands and knees.









Our runners-up – Lost Dunes, Talking Stick South, Kingsley Club, CommonGround, Streamsong Blue, Desert Forest, Sand Hills, Dormie Club, Kiawah Ocean, Streamsong Red, Old Macdonald
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

BCowan

Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #133 on: January 16, 2017, 09:50:31 PM »
Jay,

   I'm going with the 14th from Radrick.  FH too much sand for my liking...   

The tee shot on 14 is fantastic.  The player doesn't realize how much fairway to the right there it to bail out on.  The drive kept closest to the bunker on the left will receive the kick plate forward.  Taking a lot of yardage off this ball buster par 4!  All photos are courtesy of the Gold Standard Joe Bausch.   



The long approach has one looking at a long green front to back with it bending to the left at the end.  Hitting a soft butter cut into the front will help hot long irons from sliding left into a beautiful Dye bunker.  I've been on the grass island many times.

The green also will challenge ones lag putting skills...  I'd like to see the mow line cut closer to the bunker

Looking back at the topography and scale of the hole.  The photo doesn't show the width the hole has. 



Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #134 on: January 16, 2017, 10:26:36 PM »
Solid nomination Ben.  Thanks for chipping in.  I loved that hole too.

Still waiting for additional nominations from other Dye fans.  There have to be others...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 10:29:12 PM by Jason Way »
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #135 on: January 17, 2017, 11:18:22 AM »
With Friar's Head, I think you have to take either the 14th or the 15th hole.  I actually like the 15th hole better, but that's a matter of taste.  Both are wonderful.  I think the choice depends on what the other best 14th and 15th hole choices are.  Now if you could find a great 1st hole, you could use Sand Hills #14 and go with Friar's Head #15.  Finding great 1st holes is difficult.

Perhaps one of these days I will take the time to build an eclectic 18 that features a more gentle set of holes that reflect my current and evolving preferences.

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #136 on: January 17, 2017, 10:16:34 PM »
The 15th on our Modern Great 18 is Black Diamond Ranch Quarry #15, a par-4.

If memory serves, this is a Jon Cavalier nomination that both Jon and Peter have played.  I have not played it yet, although I intend to at some point.  Here is the description they shared:

"While elevated on the tee, the player observes the advances in modern technology which allows for shots to be in and through the quarry.  Fazio’s brilliant imagination shines as you turn homeward bound while passing through the depths of the dynamite shaped rocks."

I fit this hole into the 15 slot in part because I think that it is a very cool looking representation of the "hand of man" style of architecture, and in part because it seemed like a course of Modern holes ought to have some representation from this camp of GCAs.  Perhaps there is an even better hole from Fazio's portfolio - Shadow Creek, Wade Hampton, Gozzer Ranch, Butler?  I'm interested to hear from those of you more familiar with his work.

For now, BDR #15 it is.









Our runners-up – Lost Dunes, The Rawls Course, WeKoPa Saguaro, Erin Hills, Chambers Bay, Friars Head, Streamsong Red, Streamsong Blue, Old Macdonald, Sand Hollow
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #137 on: January 17, 2017, 10:59:03 PM »
The 15th at Bandon Trails and at Bandon Dunes are worthy of Honorable Mention.


My pick would be the 15th at Keith Foster's Shepherds Crook, right in Jason's backyard.  If we're making room for courses that moved a ton of earth, perhaps we should make room as well for the low green fee municipal courses that worked wonders on a small budget.


The hole is medium length par 4 that plays uphill to a skyline green, which seems to deflect all shots slightly offline.  Playing to one of the highest points on the course, the winds that sweep across the open fields of the back nine can cause a bit of second guessing.


Shepherds Crook was built by Foster's crew after he had them tour the nearby Shoreacres.  There are some old world contours built into the course, and the normally fast and firm conditions bring you back to the days before courses were over-watered.  The 4th (a Biarritz inspired par 3), 5th (a long par 4 to a green without bunkers), 6th (a par 4 with a wonderful punchbowl green), 7th (a risk reward short par 4 with options to create angles of attack based on the pin placement on the wide green), 12th (a drive and pitch hole to a right to left slanted green), 13th (a thrilling downhill approach to a multi tiered green) and 16th (a devilish short par 3) being standouts.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #138 on: January 17, 2017, 11:17:49 PM »

My pick would be the 15th at Keith Foster's Shepherds Crook, right in Jason's backyard.  If we're making room for courses that moved a ton of earth, perhaps we should make room as well for the low green fee municipal courses that worked wonders on a small budget.

The hole is medium length par 4 that plays uphill to a skyline green, which seems to deflect all shots slightly offline.  Playing to one of the highest points on the course, the winds that sweep across the open fields of the back nine can cause a bit of second guessing.



Love it Sven.  Thanks for sharing this one.  I have only played the front nine at SC and have been meaning to get back there.  This was just the kick in the pants I needed.  Going this season for sure.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #139 on: January 17, 2017, 11:37:58 PM »
SC is most definitely a place I'd like to see.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2017, 12:34:11 PM »
15 at Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry isn't even the best hole played around the quarry...

15 at World Woods Pine Barrens is a better nomination if you're looking in the Fazio portfolio.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #141 on: January 18, 2017, 02:03:52 PM »
15 at Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry isn't even the best hole played around the quarry...



I was going to say the same thing.  It's just the most photogenic hole because you are playing down into the quarry from an elevated tee.  The par-5 14th is a much cooler hole, you have to hit two daring shots to go for it but it is within range for lots of golfers.


Interestingly, some of Fazio's best holes fall at #15.  I think the 15th at Shadow Creek is the best hole on that course -- well, either 15 or 18, but I wouldn't choose a Fazio hole to finish my eclectic with.


Thirty years ago I was working on a piece for GOLF Magazine on the 100 Best Holes in America, and I happened to spend a day at Tom Fazio's office.  I asked everyone in the office that day [Jan Beljan, Dennis Wise, Andy Banfield and Mike Strantz] to nominate holes they thought should be considered for the list, to get on their good side.  But then Strantz asked me what I thought were the best FAZIO holes, and I was pretty well stumped ... the only one I could think of quickly was the 9th at Jupiter Hills.  In general, I think his style does not lead to many awesome individual holes, because he rarely creates a hole that's difficult enough to require painful choices.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #142 on: January 18, 2017, 02:48:55 PM »
Add the 15th at Wildhorse in Gothenburg to the list.  One of a number of holes from the course that should be in the conversation.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jon Cavalier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #143 on: January 18, 2017, 04:25:44 PM »
For what it's worth, I agree with both of Tom's points about the 14th at BDR Quarry being a superior hole and about Fazio's style not leading to many awesome holes (with the obvious caveat that I haven't played all of his courses).


To your point Sven, I haven't played Wildhorse, so I can't speak to that one (not sure if Jason or PK have). That said, I wasn't much impressed at all with World Woods - I thought it was really overrated, and did not "love" any of the holes there. That said, I've only played it once, so maybe I missed something.


There were several other holes that I liked for this spot, but unfortunately, most were from courses that we'd already selected from, thus triggering the one-hole-per-course exclusion.
Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #144 on: January 18, 2017, 04:33:10 PM »
  In general, I think his style does not lead to many awesome individual holes, because he rarely creates a hole that's difficult enough to require painful choices.


Tom,


I'd love for you to expound on this, either here or, perhaps better, in a new thread. Especially interesting is your choice of the words "difficult" and "painful"...neither terms usually involved in a fun game!


Thanks.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #145 on: January 18, 2017, 04:33:54 PM »
Jason,


I think every hole at Friars Head could be put on your America's Great 18s.  Such a nice variety of golf shots.


Every time I visit there I am amazed what Bill , Ben and Dave Axland pulled off on that piece of land.



Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #146 on: January 18, 2017, 06:05:09 PM »
Jason,


I think every hole at Friars Head could be put on your America's Great 18s.  Such a nice variety of golf shots.


Every time I visit there I am amazed what Bill , Ben and Dave Axland pulled off on that piece of land.


I totally agree, even if the club doesn't like being talked about. Great golf course, awesome routing, phenomenal diversity of holes with just a smidge of quirk.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #147 on: January 18, 2017, 07:00:21 PM »
Thanks for all of the nominations fellas.  Good stuff.  I was wondering when World Woods and Wildhorse would enter the conversation.  I have not played either, but I know that Peter is a big fan of WW. 

Since we are making additional nominations, one that I forgot to add to my list was #15 at Diamond Springs, a funky little par-4 by Mike DeVries.  Surprised that Ben didn't throw this one into the mix.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #148 on: January 18, 2017, 09:44:25 PM »
Just catching up here.  I have no problem with your choices for 10, 13 or 14.  I haven't played any of those so can't really nitpick.  However I am going to definitely call you out on 11, 12 and 15!   ;D   While 11 isn't bad, I don't think it's is even close to the best hole at Lost Dunes.  I would have gone with the obvious of 14 or 15 there.

I would also put 12 in the bottom third of my favorite holes at Kingsley...especially with 13, 14, 15 and 16 coming up!

I also guess I can't be too critical of 15 at Black Diamond as I haven't played it but I know I can think of many better 15th holes.  Crooked Stick is an awesome par 5 as is the par 5 at Harbor Town.

Here are my thoughts for alternates for holes 10 thru 15

10:
Kiawah Ocean Course
Wolf Run

11:
Blackwolf Run River!
Cuscowilla
Woodland Country Club - Indianapolis
Whistling Straits

12:
Chechessee Creek
Arcadia Bluffs
Old Memorial
French Lick Dye Course

13:
Kingsley Club
Butler National
Arcadia Bluffs

14:
Erin Hills
Butler National
Secession
Brickyard Crossing

15:
Lost Dunes
Kingsley Club
Crooked Stick
We-Ko-Pa Saguaro
TPC Scottsdale
Harbor Town

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: America's Great 18s
« Reply #149 on: January 18, 2017, 10:37:38 PM »
Good stuff JTarbs.  Thanks for pitching in, especially adding some new courses into the mix.  I have never heard of Woodland Country Club.  Care to share the scoop?
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back