America's Great 18s

[Jason Way]

The 11th on our Modern Great 18 is Lost Dunes #11, a par-4.

The hole is challenging throughout, playing uphill between flanking bunkers left and right.  The right bunker that separates the 11th from the 12th is terrific, and not a place to be. 

The true greatness of this hole is at the green - a wonderfully undulating putting surface set amongst the trees up in the saddle of the massive dune that separates Lost Dunes from I94.  After holing out, the player gets a stellar view back out across this section of property where one of my favorite stretches of holes in all of golf begins.











Our runners-up - Sebonack, Boston Golf Club, Sand Hollow, Ballyneal, Desert Forest, Bayonne, Old Macdonald

[Tom_Doak]

Eleven at Lost Dunes is one of my personal favorites of holes that we've built.  I just loved the green setting and the half-bowl-within-a-bowl top right hole location.  Hitting a long approach over that deep bunker and using the hill at the back to contain it on the upper level is a real thrill.


During the construction project, that deep bunker acquired a name, which I don't believe is well known.  After one of my visits, the client Jeff Shearer was giving me a ride back to Chicago to go to the airport, and I mentioned to him that my wife and I had decided to divorce, so I said, "If I dig any really deep bunkers, maybe that's why."  We had always planned to make the bunker on #11 deep, but Jeff didn't know that, and when he went back out on his next visit and saw the bunker, he asked my lead associate Tom Mead what my wife's name was?

[Jason Way]

The 12th on our Modern Great 18 is Kingsley Club #12, a par-4.

A whole without bunkers is a joy to behold, especially one that is laid as elegantly on the land as the twelfth.  Playing downhill into a valley with a fairway flowing off the hill right to a narrow, deep green set off another hill left, it rewards the player who is creative enough to use the slopes to their advantage.

The green itself is packed with subtle and confounding breaks and has a runoff right that provides options for tricky little recoveries.  Coming off the green, the player is treated to one of the best views on a course where natural beauty abounds.









Our runners-up – Talking Stick North, Arcadia Bluffs, The Rawls Course, Wolf Creek, Black Forest, Erin Hills, Honors Course, Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes

[Tom_Doak]

Regarding the 6th--
Tom, I've played Crooked Stick before and completely agree that it's an awesome hole, it just did not pop into my mind because I was so enthused over Pacific and Old Mac. The 6th at Crooked Stick I don't think is any better than the runner ups that Jason mentioned.


Maybe it should've been branded more as "18 holes from cool courses which 3 guys have played". It's 22 degrees outside here, Jason had a cool idea, just trying to spark up some conversation.

Peter:


The main reason I mentioned the 6th holes at Crooked Stick and The Golf Club was that I thought having a list of great modern holes with several of mine and none of Pete Dye's [few of which are even mentioned in the runners-up so far] was highly biased toward the courses of the last 15 years.  My tastes in par-3 holes are different than most people's so I didn't expect everyone would agree with me on the specific point, but hopefully the general point will make some think twice.

[Jason Way]

That's a fair point, Tom.  I have not played many Pete Dye courses, and with the exception of Whistling Straits, the ones I have played (ASU, Paiute Wolf, Irish Course, Radrick Farms) are not among his best.  I think that Peter and Jon have played more of his courses than I have, but I don't think they are big fans of his aesthetic.

Given how well traveled the crew around here is, I am surprised that so few others have stepped up to nominate Pete Dye holes.  Same thing with Jack Nicklaus, Tom Fazio, the Jones Family, even Mike Strantz.

Anyone brave enough?  Bueller?

[Mike_Trenham]

#8 - Ballyneal
Alternatives - Bandon Trails*, CommonGround*, French Creek*, Old Macdonald, Pronghorn Fazio, Sand Hills*, Sweetens Cove*, The Rawls Course*

I am very surprised by your inclusion of French Creek's 8th hole.  I really like French Creek but that may be one of the least good holes on that course in my opinion.  A nice connector hoe at best.

[BCowan]

That's a fair point, Tom.  I have not played many Pete Dye courses, and with the exception of Whistling Straits, the ones I have played (ASU, Paiute Wolf, Irish Course, Radrick Farms) are not among his best.  I think that Peter and Jon have played more of his courses than I have, but I don't think they are big fans of his aesthetic.

Given how well traveled the crew around here is, I am surprised that so few others have stepped up to nominate Pete Dye holes.  Same thing with Jack Nicklaus, Tom Fazio, the Jones Family, even Mike Strantz.

Anyone brave enough?  Bueller?

Jason,

Radrick Farms are not among his best

    I am assuming that you are going by the rankings of Pete's best courses?  What I have learned through age, being on GCA.com, and also Doak's book AOGC that many times the rankings are way off and people let a Clubs power, history, and tournament hosting roster influence their opinion.  I have played The Honors, Crooked, and Radrick.  When Doak says Crooked #6 is one of Pete's best par 3 IHO, I question the point of myself playing more Pete Dye courses.  The hole is average at best and the red barn bridge definitely helps the hole.  The point I am trying to make more the less is that some courses have 1 or maybe 2 great holes with some okay and weak holes.  It seems like in order to get considered as a great hole in this exercise, the hole has to be on a great course.  Maybe B sides is in order....

I am surprised that so few others have stepped up to nominate Pete Dye holes

   I nominated too late Honors #2, should have Radrick #2.  I'll nominate Honors #13.  I'll nominate Radrick #14 as my favorite Pete Dye hole (I'll post photos later).  I wish I'd of played the original 17th at Crooked, I feel I would of liked it a lot.  I think 13 is the best par 3 at Crooked now. 
   

[Jason Way]

   I nominated too late Honors #2, should have Radrick #2.  I'll nominate Honors #13.  I'll nominate Radrick #14 as my favorite Pete Dye hole (I'll post photos later).  I wish I'd of played the original 17th at Crooked, I feel I would of liked it a lot.  I think 13 is the best par 3 at Crooked now. 
   

There are plenty of other threads debating course rankings right now, so I don't want to go down that road.  However, I agree about #14 at Radrick, and I thought #8 on that course was great too - oversights on my part.  There were some holes that I really liked on the other Pete Dye courses that I played, but none that popped to mind specifically as I was making my nominations with Jon and Peter.

As this thread continues to unfold, I would love to see more of the advocates of Messrs Dye, Fazio, Nicklaus, Palmer, Jones, etc step up and nominate holes by number to broaden our mix.  Peter, Jon and I obviously have similar taste, which results in a certain degree of style homogeneity in our picks. 

[Jason Way]

I am very surprised by your inclusion of French Creek's 8th hole.  I really like French Creek but that may be one of the least good holes on that course in my opinion.  A nice connector hoe at best.

I haven't played French Creek, so I can't speak to that one Mike.  I believe that it was a Jon Cavalier pick.  What other holes at French Creek, if any, do you think belong in the conversation?  Do you think that there is a better #8 than the one we picked, or the others we nominated?  I got thoroughly roasted on Twitter by Shelman for not picking #8 at Sand Hills.  Your thoughts?

[Mike_Trenham]

Ok, I will just start with my favorite holes at French Creek on the front nine.


#1 - A great very uphill opener where the tee blends into the fairway.
#2 - A rolicking good 4.5 hole with width and a real challenge at the green pad.
#6 - An uphill par 5 that while reachable with two shots is very well protected from 200 yards to the hole
#9 - plays like an Alps hole.


That is just the front nine, back nine is just as good if not better (lows are higher highs are lower).

[Matt Kardash]

Wow, a 5.5 on the Doak scale for The Honors and Crooked Stick!?! Harsh!! I guess you just really don't like Dye courses, because those are in his top 10 by most accounts.

[Tom_Doak]

The 9th is the most interesting hole at French Creek for a list like this one.  It wouldn't have gotten my vote for best #9, but it would have beat the hole at Erin Hills.

[Ira Fishman]

I have only played a couple Dye courses, but the 5th at Blackwolf Run River is beautiful, strategic, and difficult but fair.

[Jon Cavalier]

The 9th is the most interesting hole at French Creek for a list like this one.  It wouldn't have gotten my vote for best #9, but it would have beat the hole at Erin Hills.

I may have screwed up the numbering of the holes at French Creek. The hole that I meant to nominate is the Bottle-like hole with the duel fairways split by bunkers. This one:



Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that's the 9th

[Jon Cavalier]

I'd also nominate the 9th at Monterey Peninsula Dunes (if we're counting substantial restorations as moderns) and the 10th at Monterey Peninsula Shore, both of which which I thought were excellent par-5s:


No. 9 Dunes:























No. 10 Shore:

[Jason Way]

I suspected that your visit to CA might yield new nominations, Jon.  Thanks for sharing those photos.  Both holes look gorgeous, fun, and plenty tough.

[Tom_Doak]

Jon:


I have not been to MPCC in a long time, so I haven't seen the new Dunes course, but it looks like the hole pictured is what used to be #9 -- the par-5 down into a low pocket, just before the par-3 playing to 17-Mile-Drive.  So did they somehow change the routing to have this one hole earlier, or is it the 9th?


PS  Yes, your picture is the 9th at French Creek, and that's the hole I would have nominated.

[Jason Way]

The 13th on our Modern Great 18 is Pacific Dunes #13, a par-4.  This terrific hole is a favorite of Jon's on what might be his favorite modern course (Peter and I are fans of the 13th as well).

Running north along the cliff, the fairway is quite generous, but looks anything but.  Such is the power of the ocean to intimidate.  The best angle into the elevated green is gained by taking a line as close to the cliff as possible.  It is a real "hike up your knickers" moment in a round at PD.  There is plenty of room to bail out right, but that position brings bunkers, and the enormous dune right of the green into play.

The green itself is no pushover either, with its false front and ample internal contours.  Add to that mix the whipping wind that can affect even short putts, and the 13th is more than able to provide a flatstick adventure.

In terms of rugged, natural, and awe-inspiring beauty, the Pacific Ocean and that massive dune conspire to put the 13th in a category of greatness all its own.












Our runners-up – Sand Hollow, Wade Hampton, Whistling Straits, Kingsley Club, WeKoPa Saguaro, Old Sandwich, Streamsong Blue, Old Macdonald

[Mike_Trenham]

The 9th is the most interesting hole at French Creek for a list like this one.  It wouldn't have gotten my vote for best #9, but it would have beat the hole at Erin Hills.

I may have screwed up the numbering of the holes at French Creek. The hole that I meant to nominate is the Bottle-like hole with the duel fairways split by bunkers. This one:



Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that's the 9th

Yes I agree.  That is #9.

[Jon Cavalier]

Jon:


I have not been to MPCC in a long time, so I haven't seen the new Dunes course, but it looks like the hole pictured is what used to be #9 -- the par-5 down into a low pocket, just before the par-3 playing to 17-Mile-Drive.  So did they somehow change the routing to have this one hole earlier, or is it the 9th?


PS  Yes, your picture is the 9th at French Creek, and that's the hole I would have nominated.

Geez, Tom. You're right - that's the 9th at MPCC Dunes. I had it correct at first, then second guessed myself and changed it to the 8th.


Too much golf, I suppose.


Jon Cavalier

[Tom_Doak]

I was going to save my comment about the 13th at Pacific until anyone else had posted about it ... but no one did!  Does that mean there's no argument about its place in the Pantheon, or that no one has much to say about it?


From my perspective, it may be the most beautiful hole we've ever built, and I'm fond of it because it is almost 100% natural from the property we started with.  Yet I don't think it's one of the most interesting holes we've built, or even one of the most interesting holes at Pacific Dunes.  I'd pick #2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 16 as holes with more strategic interest.


And that seems like a microcosm of the rankings of golf courses, generally.  The most dramatic oceanfront property always comes first, as long as the golf is reasonably interesting, regardless of the strategic merits of the competition. 


On the other hand, I can't think of a better modern 13th hole right away.  Perhaps I'm biased in favor of holes where I feel like I had more to do with creating them, I don't know.

[Jon Cavalier]

I was going to save my comment about the 13th at Pacific until anyone else had posted about it ... but no one did!  Does that mean there's no argument about its place in the Pantheon, or that no one has much to say about it?


From my perspective, it may be the most beautiful hole we've ever built, and I'm fond of it because it is almost 100% natural from the property we started with.  Yet I don't think it's one of the most interesting holes we've built, or even one of the most interesting holes at Pacific Dunes.  I'd pick #2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 16 as holes with more strategic interest.


And that seems like a microcosm of the rankings of golf courses, generally.  The most dramatic oceanfront property always comes first, as long as the golf is reasonably interesting, regardless of the strategic merits of the competition. 


On the other hand, I can't think of a better modern 13th hole right away.  Perhaps I'm biased in favor of holes where I feel like I had more to do with creating them, I don't know.

Perhaps the fact that you were wise enough to leave nature alone is what makes this hole great.

[John Kirk]

My passing thought about Pacific Dunes #13 today was that it comes close to being a consensus choice for best 13th hole in America.  A strong argument can be made for Augusta National #13, if we include both modern and classic courses.  But my guess is that this choice is the least disputable of the 18 holes offered in this thread.

I consider the "shot values" at Pacific Dunes #13 to be excellent.  It works well both into the wind and downwind.  Driving the ball to the left side is riskier but gives a better angle to approach the green.  I've also had the pleasure of pushing my second shot way right, only to watch the ball hit the sand 20-30 feet above the green, and roll down the dune into the greenside sand.  And the walk up to the 13th green is glorious.

[Peter Pallotta]

On its own, the last line of Tom's post #120 is one of the most interesting I've read on here for a very long while. But then it is made more interesting by the responses that follow, from two experienced and insightful members.

Could it be that the land/nature, left alone and as it is, yields more good golf/strategy than can be imagined even by an architect who understands maybe better than anyone what an undisturbed site can and does yield in terms of strategic golf?

Tom himself seems to suggest this in that last line of his, i.e. "where I feel like I had more to do with creating them" [emphasis mine]. He didn't say "where I know" I had more to do with it, or even "where I thought" I had more to do with it. To me, the stress on the word "feeling" reminds me of that line from Pascal: the heart has its reasons that reason knows nothing about. 

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:


I've always said I had two kinds of favorite holes -- the ones that were mostly there and I just found, and the ones where we had to do something creative in order to make them cool.  [At Pacific Dunes, a hole from the latter category would be the 8th, or the 9th.] 


And I did have a fair amount to do with the strategy of the 13th hole, too.  It was easy to see what was laying there ... the only real decision to make was where to make the fairway end on the right side of the hole and transition to bunkers and native sand.  By letting the fairway be very wide in the landing area and then pinching in the approach a bit -- which was narrower naturally, anyway -- we made the approach from the "safe" right side of the fairway much tougher than if you can drive it left.


Also, leaving the heavily crowned nature of the landing area fairly much alone was something that not every other architect would have done.


But there are lots and lots of holes that offer that same sort of strategy, aren't there?  I don't believe this hole has much more nuance than a lot of those other holes.  It's just more dramatic, because of the huge dune to the right of the green, and its 440 yards of Pacific Ocean frontage, which is more than all but three holes in America ... the 18th and 9th at Pebble Beach, and the 4th at Pacific Dunes, all of which show up on these lists fairly frequently. 


So, it's the same question I ask about my courses as a whole:  am I always inspired to do my very best work when I'm right next to the ocean, and I'm just not as inspired when I'm inland?  Or is the oceanfront just worth ten points on a 100-point scale?