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Greg Tallman

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #150 on: January 05, 2017, 11:10:37 AM »
If you are a panelist who claims they abhor comps and those that take/solicit them why would pay money to be a panelist?

Yale education would be a great answer. Thanks JK.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 11:13:48 AM by Greg Tallman »

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #151 on: January 05, 2017, 11:29:48 AM »
So you don't think movie reviewers get free trips to Caanes and Sundance and smooze with the stars? I'd love to be a Rex Reed if for nothing else than the easy tail...if I was a rater that is.

Sean_A

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #152 on: January 05, 2017, 11:41:24 AM »
Sean - I loved Oakland Hills, Winged Foot and Chicago.  My argument is not about the overall experience at the facility.  Mine is that not one of those courses brings the excitement over certain shots that Pacific Dunes does.  The green complexes at those 3 courses are truly special, but tee to green is not overly exciting (other than a couple of shots like #11 at Oakland Hills). 


Michael

You asked the question and I gave you the answer.  I see Pacific Dunes as one of many great links...most of which I have played. So the appeal of travelling half way around the world to play another links isn't high and not nearly as high as Chicago GC.  I don't know which is better, but that doesn't much matter to me. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 06:16:05 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Hartlepool

Michael Moore

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #153 on: January 05, 2017, 11:41:51 AM »
Need I go on?  The two are nothing alike.

Come on man, he said the two function alike, meaning that they provide criticism. There is more to life than counting beans.

"The amateur is a collector, a dabbler, a devotee caught in the awkward spot between the generative passion of creation, which drives and defines the artist, and the casual promiscuity of the consumer, who picks up and discards works of art or cultural experiences based on momentary whims or interests." A.O. Scott, Better Living Through Criticism
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

John Kavanaugh

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #154 on: January 05, 2017, 11:49:32 AM »
Being a rater is similar to being a Trump supporter. It's all good until you either brag about it or try to justify why it doesn't hurt anyone. Just keep your mouth shut and scenes like this never happen.

PCCraig

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #155 on: January 05, 2017, 11:55:09 AM »
Need I go on?  The two are nothing alike.

Come on man, he said the two function alike, meaning that they provide criticism. There is more to life than counting beans.

"The amateur is a collector, a dabbler, a devotee caught in the awkward spot between the generative passion of creation, which drives and defines the artist, and the casual promiscuity of the consumer, who picks up and discards works of art or cultural experiences based on momentary whims or interests." A.O. Scott, Better Living Through Criticism


Michael,


Please. Leave David alone. He is on a roll. It is really a treat when he does this and shows everyone how big of a jackass he is.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #156 on: January 05, 2017, 11:59:55 AM »
Being a rater is similar to being a Trump supporter. It's all good until you either brag about it or try to justify why it doesn't hurt anyone. Just keep your mouth shut and scenes like this never happen.


Those of us who rate golf courses for Golf Digest call ourselves Panelists, John.
H.P.S.

Bill Seitz

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #157 on: January 05, 2017, 12:00:24 PM »
(2) Variance.  I would not rate panelists against other panelists based on whether they are within a certain percentage of other ratings.  This creates conformity.  Panelists try to fit their ratings within a pre-established view of what is acceptable so as not to be rated poorly.  This is the reason for such little change in the Golf Digest ratings this year.  For example, Golf Digest has Rich Harvest Links rated very highly.  However, many people on this site whom I really respect don't think highly of it.  Golf Digest should be trying to get this rating "right", rather than entrench it.  I believe that the person in charge of the panel should just determine if the panelist is qualified or not based on his ratings.  That person may not always be right, but you have to place your trust in someone.   


I think this is good and I agree with, though your last part may be unworkable from a practical standpoint.  I think you're absolutely correct with regard to variance, and you see this especially with regard to conditioning, for example.  I play most of my golf at a somewhat brownish green, far from lush, firm and fast fescue course that I think is probably consistently one of the best conditioned courses i have ever played.  But it's not Augusta, and it doesn't look like Augusta, and it's not supposed to look like Augusta.  Digest says they'r'e trying to push this type of conditioning as the ideal.  It takes less water, and the firmness brings the natural contours of the land into play better than a lush, target style setup.  If I rate those conditions as ideal, I get dinged in the final grades because i disagree with the majority of people who think every course should look like Augusta.  This will be a problem as long as raters are ranked against other raters, or really against any criteria, and creating specific goals for each criterion is merely a way to grade raters, and not to rate golf courses.  If the powers that be say "we have a number in mind for this aspect of a particular course, and we're evaluating how close your rating comes to that mark" they're grading me, not the golf course.


The big problem with trying to come up with a trusted list of golf course ratings is that there are a lot of golf courses, and you need a lot of people in the rater pool to see them all.  This necessarily limits the amount of deliberation and consensus.  Hell, we argue over which four teams deserve to be in the college football playoff, and those decisions are made by a very small committee.  And more importantly, individual scales vary.  So we're all on a 0-10 scale, but some of us actually use that, while other are in practice really only rating in the 4-8 band.  If rater A gives the worst course he's seen a four, and B gives it a zero, they both agree that it's terrible, but they're not using the same scale, and when you're dealing with a thousand different de facto scales, it becomes very difficult to evaluate raters without normalizing each and every one, especially when there's little opportunity given to raters to justify individual rankings. 


Case in point, I gave a very low rating to a course I played in 2015.  It was arguably one of the worst courses I've ever played, and when evaluated in terms of value (not one of the criteria, granted) it's undeniably the worst.  The mean total rating for that course was, among other raters, the worst of all the courses I rated in the last two years, so people somewhat agree with me.  But it was flagged because I'm apparently using the entirety of the 10 point scale, whereas no one else seems to rate anything lower than a 4 or higher than an 8.  So this course gets about a five, a relatively terrible score, while I gave it a 2.5, which for me was also a relatively terrible score.  So basically I agreed with everyone, just not in the correct way.  But you can't really sit down with a thousand raters and ask them to justify each individual score.  My goal is to be able to justify each rating in each category if called to the principal's office.  That's all I can do.  I don't know of any panelists who have been kicked off the panel, but in my opinion it should only be done for things like fraud, or clear violations of policy.  A "good" rater is someone who takes the role seriously, can defend their opinions, and is committed to evaluating some minimum number of courses per year.  Those decisions should be made before someone is handed the keys.  If someone is "bad" rater because they don't write down the numbers that the publishers want to see, then the evaluation of the rater is kind of a sham.  This may get me booted from the panel, but oh well.



JMEvensky

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #158 on: January 05, 2017, 12:07:12 PM »

So you don't think movie reviewers get free trips to Caanes and Sundance and smooze with the stars? I'd love to be a Rex Reed if for nothing else than the easy tail...if I was a rater that is.



You sure you want the same easy tail as Rex Reed? Not that there's anything wrong with that.

JLahrman

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #159 on: January 05, 2017, 12:09:47 PM »
Bill, after having worked in market research for many years, you've given good examples of why I hope straight averages are not being used for these rankings.

Even assuming all the data is pure, people utilize 0-10 scales quite differently.

These types of ratings should be analyzed using non-parametric tests, in this case the Kruskal-Wallis test.


V_Halyard

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #160 on: January 05, 2017, 12:10:04 PM »
Raters function much like movie reviewers.

Oh, let me count the ways this is wrong.... 

1.  the NYT does not have 800+ movie reviewers.   GM and now GW do.

2.   Movie reviewers do not tacitly threaten or penalize courses that are unwilling to accommodate their rating hordes.  The magazines, and some raters, do.

3.  Movie reviewers do not show up at AMC or Loews' and produce a Magic Movie Reviewer Cart and expect to be let into their theaters for free.  Raters?

4.  Movie reviewers are paid a salary by their employer.  In fact, certain publications charge raters to be raters.  No publication I know charges a movie reviewer to be a movie reviewer. And no movie reviewer actually PAYS to be a movie reviewer.

5.  Movie reviews are done at special screenings prior to the movie being available to the public.  They constitute a portion of pre-debut publicity.  Raters show up years and decades later, still asking for freebies.  No movie reviewer has called MGM studios and asked for a free showing of Gone with the Wind or Casablanca in quite some time.  Raters  show up every year...

6.  Movie reviewers do not pretend to be volunteering for some higher, noble cause.  Raters?

7.  Movie reviewers aren't required to attend Movie Reviewing Camps where they pay full rack rate for seats, popcorn, hot dogs, soda and of course the movie that the movie house is giving to the publication for free.

8.  Publications do not require movie studios to purchase ads in their publications in order to host Movie Reviewing Camps where the lambs to the slaughter are fleeced at full boat rates, at the risk of having their Movie Reviewer Card pulled from them.

9.  Movie Reviewers are not required to operate their own P&Ls (and there better be no Ls) within their publication.

Need I go on?  The two are nothing alike.


Please, I make movies, media and marketing for a living.  A golf course or club can choose to allow or disallow a rater. There are credible reviewers and sh**tbags in all areas of subjective review.


So in my learned and professional media opinion, you are ranting in a vacuum. If a course or club finds value in a rating or ranking regardless how biased or blogshitfaced, it is their prerogative. Some find value in appearing on a list in the company of others and some (Cypress etc) could give two rats asses. That is a fact. If there are raters/panelists that choose to pay to play, that is the reality of economics in a shrinking media and golf hospitality world. Some staff movie reviewers have been forced into the world of blogging.


And if you don't think movie reviews are influenced by advertising and media buying or campaign spending at magazines and publications, I really would like a sample of whatever it is you put in your coffee.... or perhaps you have "The Vapors" because that phrase is a contemporary of your logic and grasp of media reality. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 12:16:08 PM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

BCowan

Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #161 on: January 05, 2017, 12:20:10 PM »
Comparing a Gentleman's Game to Hollywood is disgusting.  I need another shower

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #162 on: January 05, 2017, 12:22:36 PM »
Comparing a Gentleman's Game to Hollywood is disgusting.  I need another shower


HAAAAAA I'm so sorry... It slipped out... friends shouldn't let friends see Bagger Vance.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #163 on: January 05, 2017, 12:27:39 PM »
If you see a parallel here, fine.  I see a clear contrast. 


There aren't hordes of 1600 movie reviewers buzzing around every decent movie house in America begging for free movie tickets.  It's an embarrassment, particularly for the journalists abusing the power of the pen in this way, essentially strong-arming courses into providing them free product to sell to their hordes.   


And the only people defending this practice are the folks with an obvious conflict of interest.  I can easily explain why movie reviews are important for a brand new movie.  If we were just talking about brand new courses, I might even be persuaded.  But 1600 guys pestering top pro shop that were around in the 1800s just to get a freebie and notch in their belts.


Yeah, I see a distinction.


More blah, blah blah.  I don't recall ever pestering a pro, asking for a freebie, strong arming clubs or notching my belt.  Any other lies you wish to spew? If you are going to accuse, name names, places and dates.  Get all lawerly on us...please. 


Ciao 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 12:29:34 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Hartlepool

JC Jones

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #164 on: January 05, 2017, 12:31:11 PM »
Comparing a Gentleman's Game to Hollywood is disgusting.  I need another shower

Nothing, I MEAN NOTHING, is more infuriating than when famous people don't agree with my political views.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #165 on: January 05, 2017, 12:36:36 PM »
I haven't been doing this long, but my philosophy for being a good panelist is very simple:


1) Never expect a comp.  If you get comped, be thankful, and make sure you spend money in the pro shop, or throw something extra to the caddie (or both).  And always show up with plenty of cash, as some clubs don't take credit cards, a lesson I learned while playing practice round for a CDGA qualifier.  I expected to pay with a card, and had to run to an atm. 


2) If your round has been arranged through someone else (a friend, member, etc.), never show up and throw your card down and expect anything.  If you want to introduce yourself as a rater, call ahead, and see 1).  I think it's still fine to let them know you're coming, because some places have provided some extra literature, or made someone available to answer questions, and it can be a good learning experience.  But it's a dick move to just show up and flash a card.


3) Personally, I've never announced as a rater at a public access course, and I've played a few that would have saved me some money.  It would feel weird, like I was only asking for a free round at that point. 


4) If arranging a round at a private club, ask to play at times where there will be less member play, weekday mid day or something, and be flexible if they only have specific times when they allow unaccompanied play.  They're doing me a favor, not the other way around.


It all more or less boils down to "don't be a douchebag".  I realize that JK and Shivas will brand raters as douchebags by definition, but there's nothing I can do about that.


And no, I'm not doing anything particularly noble or worthy of praise or compassion.  My wife works for the Alzheimer's Association, so I'm used to seeing people who really do volunteer their time for something noble (though not my wife in this instance, as she's paid handsomely).  Also, with regard to Shivas' point 7, we aren't required to attend rater camps where we pay and play anywhere.  I think we had to sit through a webinar (which was free), and we're expected to rate a minimum number of courses per year.  I can only speak for one publication.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #166 on: January 05, 2017, 12:39:06 PM »
If you see a parallel here, fine.  I see a clear contrast. 


There aren't hordes of 1600 movie reviewers buzzing around every decent movie house in America begging for free movie tickets.  It's an embarrassment, particularly for the journalists abusing the power of the pen in this way, essentially strong-arming courses into providing them free product to sell to their hordes.   


And the only people defending this practice are the folks with an obvious conflict of interest.  I can easily explain why movie reviews are important for a brand new movie.  If we were just talking about brand new courses, I might even be persuaded.  But 1600 guys pestering top pro shop that were around in the 1800s just to get a freebie and notch in their belts.

Yeah, I see a distinction.

More blah, blah blah.  I don't recall ever pestering a pro, asking for a freebie, strong arming clubs or notching my belt.  Any other lies you wish to spew? If you are going to accuse, name names, places and dates.  Get all lawerly on us...please. 

Ciao


That would be impossible because you can't have more if there hasn't been one.  I never said you did.


Well, you seem quite certain of your opinions.  Who committed all these terrible crimes?  Where and when were they committed? As I said, I can understand your frustration with rankings on principle, but I can't understand the accusations you make unless you are specific. I am sure some raters have been less than honourable, but that is the case for any subset of people...yet we don't slam the entire subset...or do they in Chicago? 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Hartlepool

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #167 on: January 05, 2017, 12:49:06 PM »
Bill,

Were you a rater when we met. I've never considered you to be a bag of any kind, let alone of the douche variety. I've never met a more generous group of people, or guys who I would rather spend time around than all but three of the raters I have ever met. That small sample would barely cast a shadow over a summers eve.

Ruediger Meyer

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #168 on: January 05, 2017, 12:49:22 PM »
So you don't think movie reviewers get free trips to Caanes and Sundance and smooze with the stars? I'd love to be a Rex Reed if for nothing else than the easy tail...if I was a rater that is.


No we don't. We might get free trips so sit in a small, windowless basement in Albuquerque or New York or Glasgow to do interviews with stars who are too afraid to spoil anything. If you go to one of the festivals the newspaper or magazine you're working for will pay it. At least that's how it works in Europe


And if you don't think movie reviews are influenced by advertising and media buying or campaign spending at magazines and publications, I really would like a sample of whatever it is you put in your coffee.... or perhaps you have "The Vapors" because that phrase is a contemporary of your logic and grasp of media reality.


I can say at least for our magazine that it definitely doesn't influence whether reviews are positive or negative. The only influence it has is, if they give us access to the stars for interviews, they get more coverage, just because we have more material. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 12:58:01 PM by Ruediger Meyer »

Greg Tallman

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Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #169 on: January 05, 2017, 12:54:34 PM »
If you see a parallel here, fine.  I see a clear contrast. 


There aren't hordes of 1600 movie reviewers buzzing around every decent movie house in America begging for free movie tickets.  It's an embarrassment, particularly for the journalists abusing the power of the pen in this way, essentially strong-arming courses into providing them free product to sell to their hordes.   


And the only people defending this practice are the folks with an obvious conflict of interest.  I can easily explain why movie reviews are important for a brand new movie.  If we were just talking about brand new courses, I might even be persuaded.  But 1600 guys pestering top pro shop that were around in the 1800s just to get a freebie and notch in their belts.


Yeah, I see a distinction.


More blah, blah blah.  I don't recall ever pestering a pro, asking for a freebie, strong arming clubs or notching my belt.  Any other lies you wish to spew? If you are going to accuse, name names, places and dates.  Get all lawerly on us...please. 


Ciao

I'll stop short of naming names but I can assure it happens and happens frequently... goes well beyond the 10% rule.

That said there are a great number of wonderful and well intentioned folks as well. I have made many friends via "the ratings game". The opposite is likely true as well.

Come up and slap your card on the counter without a proper, profesional introduction and I'll be the soup nazi or Judge Smails. Conduct yourself in a professional and courteous manner and I will take care of you as best I can.

To question whether what David is saying has any merit is naïve, at best. He may say it in a rather strong manner but it's not inaccurate. 

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #170 on: January 05, 2017, 01:12:58 PM »
If you are a panelist who claims they abhor comps and those that take/solicit them why would pay money to be a panelist?



I'm not a rater, and have zero dog in this fight, but I thought the primary draw for some would be access rather than comps. 

BCowan

Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #171 on: January 05, 2017, 01:14:43 PM »
I haven't been doing this long, but my philosophy for being a good panelist is very simple:


1) Never expect a comp.  If you get comped, be thankful, and make sure you spend money in the pro shop, or throw something extra to the caddie (or both).  And always show up with plenty of cash, as some clubs don't take credit cards, a lesson I learned while playing practice round for a CDGA qualifier.  I expected to pay with a card, and had to run to an atm. 


2) If your round has been arranged through someone else (a friend, member, etc.), never show up and throw your card down and expect anything.  If you want to introduce yourself as a rater, call ahead, and see 1).  I think it's still fine to let them know you're coming, because some places have provided some extra literature, or made someone available to answer questions, and it can be a good learning experience.  But it's a dick move to just show up and flash a card.


3) Personally, I've never announced as a rater at a public access course, and I've played a few that would have saved me some money.  It would feel weird, like I was only asking for a free round at that point. 


4) If arranging a round at a private club, ask to play at times where there will be less member play, weekday mid day or something, and be flexible if they only have specific times when they allow unaccompanied play.  They're doing me a favor, not the other way around.


It all more or less boils down to "don't be a douchebag".  I realize that JK and Shivas will brand raters as douchebags by definition, but there's nothing I can do about that.


And no, I'm not doing anything particularly noble or worthy of praise or compassion.  My wife works for the Alzheimer's Association, so I'm used to seeing people who really do volunteer their time for something noble (though not my wife in this instance, as she's paid handsomely).  Also, with regard to Shivas' point 7, we aren't required to attend rater camps where we pay and play anywhere.  I think we had to sit through a webinar (which was free), and we're expected to rate a minimum number of courses per year.  I can only speak for one publication.

If only there were more Rater's with Bill's outlook.  Well done Bill... 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #172 on: January 05, 2017, 01:20:17 PM »
If you see a parallel here, fine.  I see a clear contrast. 


There aren't hordes of 1600 movie reviewers buzzing around every decent movie house in America begging for free movie tickets.  It's an embarrassment, particularly for the journalists abusing the power of the pen in this way, essentially strong-arming courses into providing them free product to sell to their hordes.   


And the only people defending this practice are the folks with an obvious conflict of interest.  I can easily explain why movie reviews are important for a brand new movie.  If we were just talking about brand new courses, I might even be persuaded.  But 1600 guys pestering top pro shop that were around in the 1800s just to get a freebie and notch in their belts.


Yeah, I see a distinction.


More blah, blah blah.  I don't recall ever pestering a pro, asking for a freebie, strong arming clubs or notching my belt.  Any other lies you wish to spew? If you are going to accuse, name names, places and dates.  Get all lawerly on us...please. 


Ciao

I'll stop short of naming names but I can assure it happens and happens frequently... goes well beyond the 10% rule.

That said there are a great number of wonderful and well intentioned folks as well. I have made many friends via "the ratings game". The opposite is likely true as well.

Come up and slap your card on the counter without a proper, profesional introduction and I'll be the soup nazi or Judge Smails. Conduct yourself in a professional and courteous manner and I will take care of you as best I can.

To question whether what David is saying has any merit is naïve, at best. He may say it in a rather strong manner but it's not inaccurate.

Agree
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #173 on: January 05, 2017, 01:22:15 PM »
Bill,

Were you a rater when we met. I've never considered you to be a bag of any kind, let alone of the douche variety. I've never met a more generous group of people, or guys who I would rather spend time around than all but three of the raters I have ever met. That small sample would barely cast a shadow over a summers eve.


No.  I started in 2015.  I think we first played in 2010, and then again the next year or maybe 2012. 

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2017 Golf Digest Top 100/200
« Reply #174 on: January 05, 2017, 01:25:16 PM »
I haven't been doing this long, but my philosophy for being a good panelist is very simple:


1) Never expect a comp.  If you get comped, be thankful, and make sure you spend money in the pro shop, or throw something extra to the caddie (or both).  And always show up with plenty of cash, as some clubs don't take credit cards, a lesson I learned while playing practice round for a CDGA qualifier.  I expected to pay with a card, and had to run to an atm. 


2) If your round has been arranged through someone else (a friend, member, etc.), never show up and throw your card down and expect anything.  If you want to introduce yourself as a rater, call ahead, and see 1).  I think it's still fine to let them know you're coming, because some places have provided some extra literature, or made someone available to answer questions, and it can be a good learning experience.  But it's a dick move to just show up and flash a card.


3) Personally, I've never announced as a rater at a public access course, and I've played a few that would have saved me some money.  It would feel weird, like I was only asking for a free round at that point. 


4) If arranging a round at a private club, ask to play at times where there will be less member play, weekday mid day or something, and be flexible if they only have specific times when they allow unaccompanied play.  They're doing me a favor, not the other way around.


It all more or less boils down to "don't be a douchebag".  I realize that JK and Shivas will brand raters as douchebags by definition, but there's nothing I can do about that.


And no, I'm not doing anything particularly noble or worthy of praise or compassion.  My wife works for the Alzheimer's Association, so I'm used to seeing people who really do volunteer their time for something noble (though not my wife in this instance, as she's paid handsomely).  Also, with regard to Shivas' point 7, we aren't required to attend rater camps where we pay and play anywhere.  I think we had to sit through a webinar (which was free), and we're expected to rate a minimum number of courses per year.  I can only speak for one publication.

If only there were more Rater's with Bill's outlook.  Well done Bill...
Exactly. Most of the raters and panelists I associate with have an expectation to pay for the round.
It is proper etiquette to inquire and inform in advance if truly rating as that course may be interested in communicating aspects regarding its architecture, improvements or investments. We were keen to share the results of our efforts to recapture our golden age character.  It was an effort that showcased the outstanding talents of a great team.
That is not the case of all courses but it was our specific intent.
One of my personal rules is that nobody should ever expect to be comped by a Municipal course.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

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