Most difficult third shot to a par 5?

[TEPaul]

As an offshoot to Evan Green's most difficult holes in the top 100 I see that PVGC's #15 was nominated a time or two. And it occurs to me that the third shot into that hole may be the most difficult to a par 5 that I'm aware of. There just seems to be so many things that can go wrong right, left, long, or even, and extremely common, if one does not get the ball past a bit more than the front third of the green. The green is 6825sf in total size but I can't believe that more than 2500sf of it is pinnable.

Not to mention the fact that to approach the hole with a third shot your first two shots need to be pretty much full bore and solid and pretty accurate due to all that happens topographically about 170-110 yds from the green. This hole was designed by Crump but not built before he died in early 1918. It appears he had in mind a crossbunker about 140-110 yds in the upslope running up to the green. That would've been interesting and probably would've forced long hitter to lay farther back in two or gamble to clear it into the narrow upsloping fairway to the green.

[Mike_Sweeney]

That third shot to the 1st hole at Sand Hills had my number when I was there. 5 attempts, 0 greens in regulation, 1 par

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Do you have to copy everything I do ??

Do you think our memories are limited to the last 3 days ?

Get your own threads !

[John Foley]

My tee shot after the first went OB!

[Tom_Doak]

One of the toughest I know is the third shot to the eighth at Crystal Downs.  You are usually playing it off an uphill and sidehill lie, it's further uphill than most realize, the green is only about 3500 sf, there's wind, and if you miss it short you could make 7 or 8 from the hollow in front.

Doesn't matter how long the third shot is, really.  One of the genius features of the hole is that if you get inside 80 yards most second shots roll down into the hollow on the left front, which is the last place you want to be.

[Mike Hendren]

The 4th at my home course, Legends Club of Tennessee.  The hole plays 580 yards with a straight away (i.e., not angled to the line of play) double-plateau green.  The front plateau has a steep 2-3 feet false front leading to only ten paces of green before the two feet dip that feeds the ball into three-putt range.  Exhibit A that Bob Cupp "gets it" but simply doesn't "reflect it."

Perhaps not problematic for the expert lob wedger, but I am forced to play roulette with a low running 8-iron that all too oftens rolls back down the false front.  

Regards,

Mike

[corey miller]

I would nominate the 17th at Prairie Dunes.  It is situated on a hill with a tiny severly undulated green.  Depending on wind the hole is reachable in two so it provides a testing shot from 250 yards and from eighty yards.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Sorry, I didn't mean to copy a thread of yours--I haven't been around that much lately and threads can get into the back pages pretty fast these days.

TomD:

Good point about the 3rd shot to the 8th at Crystal. I have a friend, who's a very fine player but has a volcanic temper that he's been able to keep well under wraps. I've only seen him lose it on the course three times and the first was hitting a sand wedge well onto #8 Crystal and having it spin well down as you described. Ironically the only other times I ever saw him lose his temper was approaching #3 Stonewall with a good SW to a back pin and have it pull left off the green and then later hit a 5 iron right next to the pin on #13 and have it bound left off the green. I told him the way to play #13 was to aim at the right green bunker with about a 7 iron for that shot and filter it off the approach onto the green (Stonewall was good and firm and fast for that tournament). The next day he took my advice and almost holed his approach from the same place he'd been the day before. I thought he would've been ecstactic but he was so pissed over that shot the day before he just grumbled something like;

"That's a helluva way to have to play a shot!"

But thankfully since then he's come to know a bit better the beauty of the ground game approach which Stonewall offers so well in 3-5 places!

[ChasLawler]

The 3rd shot on #17 at Valderrama seems to give the best player in the world some problems - green speed and maintenance meld dependent though.

[Dan Kelly]

How about the third to 15 at Augusta. Looks tough on TV!

[TEPaul]

"The 3rd shot on #17 at Valderrama seems to give the best player in the world some problems - green speed and maintenance meld dependent though."

R Junah;

You've got a point there. That third shot appeared to be almost a "no can do" but there sure wasn't a lot of options on whatever it took to stay on that green. I think the tour pros, including Tiger, needed KennyV to show them his maximum "dead hands" shot to make that shot doable!

The neat thing about the third shot to PVGC's #15 is as hard as it can be sometimes there really are all kinds of ways of going about getting it on the green. And now it just may be possible that they'll take a ton of trees down off the hill-side to the left of the green. There're all kinds of neat bunkers up on that hillside. Can you imagine if the trees were gone off that hillside trying to hoist a big fade or cut onto that green? How cool would that be? And how dangerous?

[CHC1948]

This course isn't mentioned much here, but Grandfather Golf &CC.  The sixth hole is a pretty docile par five, but the approach with any club is tough.  I like to lay back to 100-120 yds.  The green is a fairly good size for a short iron approach, however, some well placed bunkers play tricks on your eyes and a lot of the putting surface runs-off in different directions.  The wind tends to swirl a lot around this green!!

[Scott_Burroughs]

I was going to suggest PB #14, but I'll nominate my home course for one.

Wake Forest GC opens with a 711-yard par 5.  From the tips, unless you hit a 325-yard drive (it is significantly downhill, but usually doesn't roll much except during droughts due to low-lying land), you can't clear the creek in two (even with a 325-yard drive, you need to bust a 3-wood to clear the creek).  So, you're left with a lay-up behind the creek for an approach of 200+ significantly uphill yards to a skyline green that has two tiers and slopes back to front (top tier is pretty shallow).  Left quarter of green is fronted by bunker.

Hey, I didn't say it was a good hole.  It's actually a good hole from the next up tees at 620 yards.  A decent drive gives a good shot at clearing the creek, leaving ~150 way uphill yards to that same skyline green.

[TEPaul]

Scott:

That's a hole from the tips they need to make a par 6! Seriously!

[CHC1948]

Scott,
Last time I played WFGC it was struggling a bit.  I heard you all have new owners or management, what changes have occurred since the change?    

[Scott_Burroughs]

CHC,

We are back with our original owner and being run by a local/regional company.  Not doing terribly well financially, didn't help with rainy year this year.  Had to let our head pro go despite him being the nicest guy in the world who actually cared about the members (head pro at other local course run by same company will be sharing HP duties here).  He had just bought a house near the course and had a new baby, too.   It was strictly financial.

Membership drive went splendidly this year, however, with at least 50 new members joining with reduced initiation fees.  Can't hurt the bottom line, certainly.  Guraranteed income.

I know I'm happier with the expanded walking hours on weekends.

Have had 4 guys from GCA join me at my club, 3 are local.

[George Pazin]

How about the 3rd into Oakmont #12? That looks like one of the toughest par 5s in the world and the 3rd shot doesn't seem too easy. Lots of times pars & bogeys won this hole at the Amateur.

[ChipOat]

#15 at Pine Valley gets my vote - the greatest par 5 ever built IMO.

[TEPaul]

In the overall I'm coming to agree with you about that Chip, although it is an unusual hole in its straight one dimensional high demand character. I played like a wound dog down there last week--the only real highlight being I did birdie #15 which sure isn't easy for me playing that course from the total tips.

[ChipOat]

Tom Paul:

Most demanding 2nd and 3rd shots I know;  particularly impressed by everything going on for the 2nd shot.

Have thought for a long time that the drive and approach shots are (logically) the focus of an architect's attention on every other great par 5 I know.

2nd shot at PV #15 is demanding from everywhere in the fairway although I suppose the left side is slightly preferable.

Strategic, difficult and scenic - it just doesn't get any better than that.