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Mike Hendren

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I'll let you decide who today's preeminent golf course architects are, but it seems like they are more interested in swinging for the fences than legging out a ground ball.   More interested in emulating Alister Mackenzie than Donald J. Ross.  More interested in creating a Picasso than a Bob Ross.

Then again, who can blame them with their tremendous talent, vision and skills - particularly when the "next big thing" is where the money is.  That, and chicks dig the long ball. 

Just wondering.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

Bogey
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 10:01:30 AM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2016, 10:44:59 AM »
More interested in emulating Alister Mackenzie than Donald J. Ross.
Could you please expand on this?
Atb

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 10:46:50 AM »
They are more talented than their predecessors, more technically astute and with a longer history and larger body of great work from which to learn and to borrow.  The clients demand home runs, and the magazines demand them, and we here certainly demand them -- but most of all the great architects demand them, from themselves. In general that's a good thing, and in keeping with an art-craft that has become an Art-Craft; but yes, as with jazz (which once primarily served a function, ie as dance music), I do sometimes have a nostalgic longing for a humbler sort of art-craft and a less self-conscious skill-set: one that draws less attention to itself.     

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 10:52:57 AM »
Bogey,

I think the problem with the position is there aren't many pitches that will result is a solid single or a well legged double. Most of them expected to be hit for a grand slam. If there we're then there might be a lot more young & upcoming singles hitter the sluggers should be fearing.

Given the small amount of new developments that is what we are seeing the swing for the fences. 20 years ago there were a lot more pitches available for the singles hitter!!

Merry Christmas!!!
Integrity in the moment of choice

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 11:13:36 AM »
Thomas, I can best answer with one word associations:  Mackenzie = spectacular.  Ross = sublime. Mackenzie was a great designer of landscaped masterpieces.  Ross was a great designer of playing fields.  At their core, one was an architect and the other was a golfer. 

Make any sense at all?

John, I think you're spot on.

Note to others:  See what I did there?  You don't have to copy the entire quote you're referring to and include it in your reply.  Saves paper.

Cheers!
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 11:20:31 AM »
When are we going to stop believing the polls? These new courses aren't as good as you are being told. The very nature of instant feedback available today has to dilute the product. Exactly how many top 25 world have we been told about by guys who fly so many miles they wear a compression sock on their skull? I guess, with no exaggeration, at least six. Bordering on 25%, are you seriously buying this crap?

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2016, 11:30:53 AM »
I am not sure I agree with the representations of Dr. Mac and Mr.Ross but understand the question. I have belonged to three clubs, all built since 1990 that have addressed the issue of long ball. Musgrove  Mill is a Palmer design (Ran has it a Doak 6). Position off the tee is far more important than long ball. When I played with our long absent NJ writer he failed to understand this and pounded the ball as far as he could and had a big score. Direction and distance control are far more important than pure distance. Four Streams is an excellent Steve Smyers design and was built for the long ball with only a few holes that I would consider lay up holes. Ballyhack requires both distance and accuracy. Depending on the tees that are played there are only a few holes where a lay up is required, although there are a few holes where it seems the prudent play. Ballyneal is not just a long ball hitters ball park, neither is Bayonne, while next door neighbor Liberty National seems to be. But all three have different purposes. So I think it depends of the owner and what the owner desires. But overall, I think that in the fifties, sixties, seventies, and eighties courses were designed with the long ball in mind. They are not long by contemporary standards but were when they opened. I think today many designers are looking for more balance.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2016, 11:51:18 AM »
Hello Michael:


I don't agree with your premise, exactly.  I would submit any of the last three courses my company has built [St. Emilion, The Loop, and Stoatin Brae] as more Ross-like than MacKenzie-like in terms of scale, and style, too, although I think your post is more about the former.


That's not to say that I wouldn't love to build more projects like Tara Iti.  Nobody is going to turn down chances like those.  I'm just pretty realistic as to how many of those there will be in the next few years, and that I'll have to do other projects at other price points to the extent that I'd rather keep working instead of just going and playing.


In the end, the economics have a lot to do with it.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard that someone "considered" us for a project, but never contacted us because they thought our fees would be too high.  I hate to hear that, but at the same time, those jobs wind up going to other architects who need the work, and who aren't going to get hired for Tara Iti.


If you are saying that high design fees lead architects to over-design their courses, though, I don't necessarily agree.  But I do think that clients with grand aspirations tend to pay higher design fees, if they can afford them.  In fact, I've got records to prove it.

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2016, 12:31:32 PM »
Isn't the rate of output something to be considered here as well? If an architect builds one golf course one year and 10 the next, won't his/her approach be different? This is not to draw a negative conclusion from Ross' significant output, but rather to suggest the goals were different in a way that might partially explain the differences in style.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2016, 12:39:17 PM »

The definition of preeminent doesn't really matter here, but the inclusion of that word does. If you want to become a preeminent hitter as a ground ball specialist, you need to be able to replicate the production volume of Ichiro or Tony Gwynn. In the absence of production volume, the only way to become preeminent is to do the sexier stuff.


I paid attention to MLB a bit during my childhood, mostly from about 1992-1996 or so. Two players stood out at the time as being far and away the most popular among my peers. You'll guess one right away - Ken Griffey. The other guy, though, was probably even more popular among my own classmates, and he was certainly more popular with us than Barry Bonds despite not being anywhere near as good. It was a simple equation: visibility + power + flair = Baseball Preeminence. Bonds had power, but he had so little flair in his game at the time that I remember ads focusing on his damn earring to try to make him seem cool to kids. Meanwhile, David Justice played almost every game on national TV in the eastern time zone in front of a crowd with a corny, derivative, and iconic ritual cheer, and hit and threw the ball harder than anyone else on his nationally-televised team while playing with a sense of cool nonchalance that led to most of us getting our first concussions by trying to one-hand fly balls like he did. He nailed the categories of visibility and flair, and he had power. It didn't matter that he was probably just a mediocre baseball player.


I do think there are some signs of strain when it comes to this current era of golf course architecture. While we've seen a lot of great new courses built in the last 20 years or so, I think it was about four years ago that I was driving through the entrance of one of these new modern marvels and thought for the first time "Man, this sorta looks like every other course built with much acclaim in the past 15 years." Just as we now look back at stars like Justice and realize that hitting for some power and playing on national TV didn't make them great, we'll someday look back at a lot of today's "great" courses and realize that they were really just well-hyped, visible, and fit the mold of what we thought was cool at the time. Coolness is more about style than substance, and minimalism is in right now. But someday that trend will shift, and when it does, we'll realize that some of these "great" courses of the last 20 years were really just stylish, while others will be properly canonized. You know, assuming that there isn't a giant outbreak of PED usage among architects that eventually taints this entire generation.


What would be the best PED for a GCA, anyways?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2016, 12:50:01 PM »
What would be the best PED for a GCA, anyways?

The same as for the rest of us; Praise and Recognition
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2016, 12:56:05 PM »
All architects of all time have been in love with the long ball.  Whats not to love? But they have all been in love with shorter shots, putts, chips and on and on...its all golf.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 01:41:13 PM »
Jack Nicklaus and the Cayman ball?
Atb

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 10:21:33 AM »

I take it "long ball" is the equivalent to "hitting a home run" i.e., getting awards, rankings, etc.  Of course, the answer is yes, as the system always loved new exciting courses, but has been perfected or "improved" over the years to merely demand it.


If we want to be less cynical and more analytical a few things drive design away from the subtlety of Ross to Mac like visuals:


Due to TV and movies, we are a more visual society.  Computers and video games do nothing but accelerate that trend.  Golf design must follow suit.


Due to social change, more courses are public, and logically, more of these are played once a decade to a few times a year by most players, as opposed to a club where subtlety, learned over time by repeat member play is a good thing.  For the one and done crowd, visuals are a better match to giving the customer what they want (generally, probably not this crowd)


And lastly, the average attention span in America has dwindled over the years, decreasing from 17 seconds a decade ago to a mere 10 seconds now.  I presume two things from this - it was probably in the minutes back in the Golden Age and......most of you probably haven't read this far!


Whoops, I guess I wasn't any less cynical! ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2016, 10:37:59 AM »
Has anyone else noticed how all the cheeseburgers in the world are starting to look alike?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2016, 12:50:10 PM »
Has anyone else noticed how all the cheeseburgers in the world are starting to look alike?


Yes. They are all craft burgers, with each one similarly crafted. Like from Life of Brian, when the whole crowd shouts 'we're all individuals' in unison. Maybe I'm not well, but it makes me want a Rolling Rock or Pabst Blue Ribbon and a Domino's mushroom and pepperoni pizza, just so I won't make what I eat or drink yet another (ego based)  badge of distinction.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 01:15:38 PM »

Peter,


You might recall Steve Martin having his audiences repeat the non-conformists oath, as well. ::)


It ends abruptly (and with laughter)with the line "I promise NOT to repeat things other people say....."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2016, 03:09:33 PM »
Peter,


Throw some onions on that pie and I'll go halfsies with ya.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2016, 03:43:25 PM »
Has anyone else noticed how all the cheeseburgers in the world are starting to look alike?


Yes. They are all craft burgers, with each one similarly crafted. Like from Life of Brian, when the whole crowd shouts 'we're all individuals' in unison. Maybe I'm not well, but it makes me want a Rolling Rock or Pabst Blue Ribbon and a Domino's mushroom and pepperoni pizza, just so I won't make what I eat or drink yet another (ego based)  badge of distinction.

Is why Bandon keeps adding to the menu.

BCowan

Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2016, 05:35:15 PM »
Has anyone else noticed how all the cheeseburgers in the world are starting to look alike?


Yes. They are all craft burgers, with each one similarly crafted. Like from Life of Brian, when the whole crowd shouts 'we're all individuals' in unison. Maybe I'm not well, but it makes me want a Rolling Rock or Pabst Blue Ribbon and a Domino's mushroom and pepperoni pizza, just so I won't make what I eat or drink yet another (ego based)  badge of distinction.

Is why Bandon keeps adding to the menu.


Some excellent stuff there.  I love craft, PBR, and any kinda burger.  Hope that isn't ego based.  I loathe IPAouchers.....

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2016, 05:53:56 PM »
Bogey,


Where is there a market for opposite field singles? No one is going to risk their money for that nowadays.


I think you're suffering from sentimentality.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2016, 06:01:52 PM »
Mr. Bogey,
I don't know what being a preEminem architect has to do with anything.  I like Marshal Mathers...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2016, 06:20:18 PM »
 8)  and in the burger analog universe, if one holds the mayo, or its not dripping juicy, can it possibly still be a "championship" course
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2016, 06:23:26 PM »
Has anyone else noticed how all the cheeseburgers in the world are starting to look alike?

And Burger King is fine with it... ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Have today's preeminent architects fallen in love with the long ball?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2016, 06:32:50 PM »
Bogey,

Where is there a market for opposite field singles? No one is going to risk their money for that nowadays.

I think you're suffering from sentimentality.

You're right, Joe, he is. And I am too. I know sentimentality is not a virtue, but it saddens me that in today's hard-nosed, no nonsense world, it seems to have become a vice. As Mr. Potter said to George Bailey when he was trying to build affordable housing,  "sentimental hogwash" -- as if only what has proven to be a sure fire financial success in the past is worth doing again. I know that what Bogey is asking for is a lost cause, but to quote another Capra film: "You remember lost causes, don't you Mr. Paine? A man we both knew and loved once said they were the only causes worth fighting for".  But there I go getting sentimental again -- never mind, it happens to me every year around this same time, it must be the lack of daylight...
Best wishes to you
Peter
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 06:34:58 PM by Peter Pallotta »