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Thomas Dai

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Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« on: December 21, 2016, 04:34:39 AM »
In the two current threads of photos taken during 2016 there are a whole bunch of terrific photos.

With due respect and no slight intended as I know some posters and keen amateurs and those who make a living from photography are really smart and skilful when it comes to light and angles and dedicated when it comes to the time of day etc, but at many locations photographed on or around golf courses it would be just about impossible not to take a good photo.....it's the backdrop, the view, the angle etc that makes the photo stand out as something a bit special, memorable even.

Taking it one step further, to what extent is there a special skill in golf architecture that makes the most of a particular site, whether it be individual holes or the overall routing such that the most is made of any available backdrops, views etc?

In this respect I imagine flat sites to be right buggers and I appreciate that sometimes a routing can be compromised for the sake of a signature hole.

Thoughts?

Atb
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 04:37:32 AM by Thomas Dai »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2016, 06:09:42 AM »
Thomas:


This is one of the aspects of design where architects are very different from one another.  Some just don't care about the backdrops at all, it's only the golf holes that matter.  Some care more about the backdrops than the golf ... or at least their clients do!  Getting both right is obviously much harder.


None of the early books on golf architecture [MacKenzie, Thomas, Colt, Simpson] said much of anything about the backdrops of the holes.  Nevertheless, looking at MacKenzie's courses, it's obvious he cared more than most.  It can't be an accident that the first tee shot at Pasatiempo lined up right at the end of the Monterey Peninsula, or that the 13th at New South Wales plays toward the far point of Botany Bay.  Once I noticed those, I started thinking about it more in my own work.


To be fair, sometimes we can't tell how much an architect focused on backdrops, because the backdrops have changed so much in 100 years because of tree growth, tree death, or subsequent construction.  I've seen a couple of awkward golf holes over the years that I didn't understand until I saw a picture of the original hole with a mighty elm tree [now long gone] as its principal feature.


Sometimes getting the backdrop right is a matter of elevation.  Raising the tee [or raising the green on a pedestal] can hide something you don't want to see behind it, or make something in the distance appear larger, if you put it right on the horizon.  These are things that you are more likely to focus on the more time you spend on site.


One tip I have heard regarding housing development courses is to try like hell not to let them put a house right behind a green, strictly for visual purposes.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 09:11:15 AM »
In the two current threads of photos taken during 2016 there are a whole bunch of terrific photos.

With due respect and no slight intended as I know some posters and keen amateurs and those who make a living from photography are really smart and skilful when it comes to light and angles and dedicated when it comes to the time of day etc, but at many locations photographed on or around golf courses it would be just about impossible not to take a good photo.....it's the backdrop, the view, the angle etc that makes the photo stand out as something a bit special, memorable even.

Taking it one step further, to what extent is there a special skill in golf architecture that makes the most of a particular site, whether it be individual holes or the overall routing such that the most is made of any available backdrops, views etc?

In this respect I imagine flat sites to be right buggers and I appreciate that sometimes a routing can be compromised for the sake of a signature hole.

Thoughts?

Atb


Your post reminds me of Castle Stuart somewhat. That course is all about backdrop with the infinity greens.


The opening holes are stunning but you then feel a bit disappointed as you turn back from the firth. Lo and behold the very next par 3 feels like you're in a tunnel with the use of the actual Castle Stuart as a backdrop. Very clever.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 09:52:04 AM »

Your post reminds me of Castle Stuart somewhat. That course is all about backdrop with the infinity greens.



Kingsbarns, too.  That is Mark Parsinen's contribution to both courses ... he was obsessed with the backgrounds.  Likewise, it was a big topic for Steve Wynn at Shadow Creek, which opened the eyes of Tom Fazio's staff to the subject.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 10:12:01 AM »
I think the best backdrop for a golf hole is more golf holes, and the best backdrop for a golf course is the sky.
I think of Wolf Pointe and Pacific and NGLA etc.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2016, 11:05:49 AM »
I think the best backdrop for a golf hole is more golf holes, and the best backdrop for a golf course is the sky.
I think of Wolf Pointe and Pacific and NGLA etc.


Tom,
Thanks for these insights. I recall being told whilst standing on the tee that a particular par-3 was notably MacKenzie as the tee-green visual line pointed to a pronounced building on a hill in the distance. I've since spotted a couple of others myself which I guess proves I was listening!


Ryan/Tom,
Good call on Castle Stuart Ryan and interesting follow-up about Kingsbarns/Parsinen/Shadow Creek/Fazio staff Tom. The course I had in mind was the Sandy Hiils course at Rosapenna where several greens seem to be positioned to give views out over Sheephaven Bay, and wonderful views they are too. I recall the Glashedy course at Ballyliffin has a couple of similar views as well and I have been told the European Club does too. A regular Pat Ruddy feature?


Peter,
If you flick through a photo thread such as this current one - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63953.0.html - you'll notice that the sky comprises a very large proportion in almost every one. Is it that the sky is the one constant backdrop in wide landscapes or is it the application of "rule of thirds" in photography?


Atb
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 11:12:31 AM by Thomas Dai »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2016, 01:40:38 PM »
The one course that sticks out more than most when it comes to this is Stone Eagle.


I believe Tom has commented on this before, but there was a lot of interesting backdrops to both tee shots and approach shots that probably didn't happen by accident.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2016, 01:43:17 PM »
Thinking of the backdrop (both in the far distance and the immediate rear) is near the forefront of most architect's minds when considering both the orientation of the hole and the position of the green site. Certainly mine.

I'd be amazed if it was any other way.

Incidentally Ryan, as much as I love Castle Stuart, I think the horizon green is overdone there. Too many examples take away from the whole.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2016, 02:30:27 PM »
David: In the US with all the housing development courses you have backdrops that can completely ruin a hole.  How often we come to a really good hole and here's this house right behind the green which makes you try to totally disregard the background and focus on the shot. I would rather it be that it is hard to focus on the shot because the background and/or view is so beautiful - this was often the case during my trip to Ireland.


I think that some architects clearly make angles a critical part of their designs.  I saw this with Tillinghast at Winged Foot, Ridgewood and Baltimore CC while it is also critical in Tom's designs as well as C & C.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2016, 11:38:50 AM »

Incidentally Ryan, as much as I love Castle Stuart, I think the horizon green is overdone there. Too many examples take away from the whole.


Agree. I think Tom D once referred to the use of skyline greens as becoming a fetish and I think it is a bit there. From what I heard/recall the long downhill par 3 was also going to be a skyline green but they found a pocket of sand where the green now is and dug down. However the worst example is the hole (14th ?) that is built up on both sides but with a skyline view of the Bridge. Presenting a view is one thing but when it's as contrived as that.....well it just smacks of trying to hard, IMO of course.


Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2016, 05:58:30 AM »


Backdrops matter, most especially on holes that are less than ideal.  However, on holes which are very good, I bet most barely notice the backdrop....and nobody would say the hole is poor because of the backdrop...quality always shines through.

Pietro

I too like golf holes as backdrops...which is one reason I dislike too many trees on courses and why on courses without exterior views the interior views become critical.  I especially like it when a green bisects a fairway to the rear giving the impression of much more space. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2016, 10:20:48 AM »
I think the best backdrop for a golf hole is more golf holes, and the best backdrop for a golf course is the sky.
I think of Wolf Pointe and Pacific and NGLA etc.
I don't know about that Peter.


 The backdrop on 18 @ TOC certainly does a lot for that hole.
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2016, 10:37:58 AM »
I think the best backdrop for a golf hole is more golf holes, and the best backdrop for a golf course is the sky.
I think of Wolf Pointe and Pacific and NGLA etc.
I don't know about that Peter.


 The backdrop on 18 @ TOC certainly does a lot for that hole.


Bob, while I suppose you're right about TOC, in general I subscribe to Peter's notion of more golf beyond a green. It begs for a contemplation of the wider golf experience. It mirrors the notion of why fewer trees are better than more trees ... more of the course can be experienced in any moment.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2016, 10:41:50 AM »
It would be an interesting routing that would result in every hole (including the closing hole!) having golf holes as a backdrop. Does that exist anywhere?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2016, 10:44:07 AM »


Sometimes getting the backdrop right is a matter of elevation.  Raising the tee [or raising the green on a pedestal] can hide something you don't want to see behind it, or make something in the distance appear larger, if you put it right on the horizon.  These are things that you are more likely to focus on the more time you spend on site.





Tom -- wasn't this the thought behind the "green in the sky" concept that Mike Keiser had for one of the greens at PacDunes?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2016, 11:03:31 AM »
I've always enjoyed wondering about the lives of the people who live next to golf courses. Now that I am one myself, I get a half dozen balls a day, I enjoy wondering about the golfers who pass. Oddly enough I bought this house because I have always liked how it looked from the course. Now I like the course because how it looks from the house.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2016, 11:22:05 AM »

Sometimes getting the backdrop right is a matter of elevation.  Raising the tee [or raising the green on a pedestal] can hide something you don't want to see behind it, or make something in the distance appear larger, if you put it right on the horizon.  These are things that you are more likely to focus on the more time you spend on site.


Tom -- wasn't this the thought behind the "green in the sky" concept that Mike Keiser had for one of the greens at PacDunes?


Phil:


I remember most everything about Pacific Dunes, but I don't remember Mike saying anything about a "green in the sky."  Where did you get that from?


The interesting thing about Pacific Dunes is that pretty much every green site is anchored by a dune, either behind it or beside it.  You see other holes as you play, but not when you're standing over your approach shots [except for the lower 9th, which looks down on part of Bandon Dunes].  I didn't set out to do that, but I think that's one reason everyone likes it.


I guess you could describe the 7th at Old Macdonald as a "green in the sky" but I don't remember Mike using the phrase when we were discussing that one, either.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2016, 11:30:23 AM »
This thread makes me think of Royal New Kent, which was as changed by housing as any course I've ever seen.

WW

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2016, 03:33:17 PM »
Thomas,


When the idea for the 19th hole at Sebonack came up, I told Garrett the superintendent who's ideas it was that if you positioned the tee correctly that the tip of the island out by Scallop pond would be exactly in center of the green.


Mackenzie would be proud of Garrett.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2016, 05:31:21 PM »
Capilano has great vistas down hole corridors.  The first few holes look straight down at Vancouver harbor, the 15th and 17th look at a spectacular mountain peak off in the distance.  Obviously vistas were important to Thompson. 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Backdrops, views, angles and hole routing.
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2016, 11:12:36 PM »
Without question in my mind almost every architect is concerned about what is beyond (the backdrop of) their golf holes.  Sometimes what is beyond the green is out of their control, but I believe all architects think about it and take it into consideration in their design/routings. 
Even an architect like Donald Ross (who is known for ending his holes at the back edge of his greens), took notice about what was beyond and surely routed/sited his holes accordingly. 

Again, architects realize that they don't always know what will happen in the backdrops of their golf holes but I personally think what is back there impacts and is part of "the architecture".   This was heavily debated on this site years ago with some arguing backdrops are not part of the design and some saying they are. 

Like many aspects of course design there are no rights or wrongs and only opinions  :)

One example - no one will ever convince me the Pacific Ocean isn't part of the design/architecture at a course like Pebble or Cypress Point.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 11:17:50 PM by Mark_Fine »