News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Torrey Pines North Report Card
« on: December 17, 2016, 05:27:38 PM »
I finally got a chance to play the renovated North course at Torrey Pines thanks to fellow GCA'er John Crowley, many thanks John! The City finally jettisoned the tedious phone in system and tee times are now made online; times on the North are gobbled up in less than 30 seconds! I'm sure most are familiar with the back story: the City was hell bent on blowing up the greens and getting new ones built to USGA standards. The citizens resisted a redesign for many years fearing they would have to endure another torture test like the South. Credit Phil Michelson for getting the ball rolling with his vision for a course that was easier for everyday players, tougher for Tour Pros, eliminated the 5% slopes on the original push-up greens and reduced irrigated turf in out of the way areas with a native canyon look. Sadly California's convoluted regulations eliminated him from the project and Tom Weiskopf was selected to lead the effort. To his credit Tom moved with his wife to SD for 4 months to be on site during the redesign. The City originally received bids of 17 and 18 million dollars and the project was stalled for a year. The solution was to say " what can you do for the 12 million we have budgeted" and the project proceeded. The City regulation to use "fair wage labor" no doubt increased the cost significantly.   

Construction A+
I believe Wadsworth was selected and they did a first rate job. The tie ins around all reconstructed greens are outstanding, a far cry from the work done on the South. Their solution to tie in the new green complexes was to hydoseed the areas between the new greens and fairways with rye and it took years for those areas to mature. The bonus there was it makes it easier to bounce or run balls in without a mat of sticky Kikuyu in front. On the North all areas were soded with existing turf, most likely harvested from areas that were going to be turned into native zones. There not a single seam evident and the areas look like they have been there for years. The only downside is they are primarily Kikuyu and may make it difficult to bounce or run balls on the green. The project started the day after last year's Farmers and the course is certainly ready to be played on.


Greens A
Much was made about eliminating the 5% slopes and many locals feared a steady diet of dead straight putts on flat surfaces. However building new greens into spots which previously accommodated highly sloped greens needed an ingenious approach. In most instances it was accomplished with distinct tiering. Some greens feature a flattening with a dramatic falloff. There are a lot of dead straight putts however, I had several 20-30 footers which could be aimed inside the cup. There were however several which had 2-3 feet of break, mainly on the greens without tiers which still have a pronounced overall slope. There's good variety in both green shape and contour, hard to say from one play whether the contour will promote strategy as to where to approach from the fairways.


Strategy C
The mowing lines were pretty much maintained which means 25 yard wide fairways on average. I don't know how good you are but with that sort of width the average golfer is solely concerned with hitting the fairway rather than trying to favor one side or the other. The bunkering scheme was changed completely with many positioned to trap only Tour Pros which leaves them well out of reach for the everyday player. The nines have been flipped so the golfer encounters the dramatic cliff side holes on the back nine. But several holes are bunkered on the outside of the dogleg? Examples include the par 5 5th (old 14th) which now has bunkers on the right side. Trees were planted to guard the left side of the dogleg and it will be decades before they influence play. The 9th (old 18th) is also bunkered on the left, presumably to keep you from rolling up against the driving range fence. There are certainly less fairway bunkers than before and many holes are harder to discern the correct driving line without the visual guide of a fairway bunker. There however several fairway bunkers which can be carried to shorten the hole, namely on 4, 11 and 17. The short par 4 7th (old 16th) has been turned into a driveable par 4 by both lowering the green site and brining it closer to the tee. However from 322, 290, 274 & 259 is it really driveable? The green is well suited to that style hole but without moving up a set of tees it seems like reaching the green with driver is a tough task. I was saddened that the 18th is still dead straight, a slight meander of the fairway would have added more interest, but it is still ridiculously narrow however a clever rough covered nose was added to the right side of the landing area to spice things up.


Changes B+
The relocation of the 17th (old 8th) green further down and hard alongside the canyon is a a great plus. At 520, 486 & 470 it's a great 4.5 par hole. The hole is bunkered on the left off the tee with a speed slot just to the right of the fairway bunker. The green side bunker on the left keeps those trying to shorten the hole honest with their approach. The short par 4 11th (old 2cnd) now has two fairway bunkers making it more of a dogleg right and the look off the tee is very unsettling at first, it looks like there is nowhere to land the ball. The par 3 12th green has been extended right to the canyon on the left and players can finally use the back tees which are 203, 177 & 165 yards. The extreme slope of the signature par 3 15th was solved with a distinct back tier; I actually had a putt break towards the middle of the green to a central hole location! On the uphill 16th hole Weiskopf wanted to turn it into a driveable  par 4, however at one of the meeting allowing citizens to have a voice in the project the overwhelming sentiment was to leave the hole alone because of its scenic nature. Tom did lower the green by 12 feet making it a much more manageable second shot.


Tree Management B
It's not called Eucalyptus Hills and thankfully it wasn't turned into an Australian course like the South! Because it's closer to Torrey Pines State Preserve there significantly more Torrey Pines on the North Course. However quite a few good sized Torrey Pines where removed, notably behind the 14th green making it a true skyline and now only one Torrey Pine guards the left of 16. Sadly the remaining Torrey Pines look pretty bad. Although we have had drought conditions for the last 5 years I suspect it is more a consequence of a beetle infestation. Rumor is the City has a nursery to eventually replace the diseased trees if a solution to the beetles is found.


Bunkers B+
The bunkers had morphed into mere puddles of sand and something needed to be done. The new look is a flashed sand which helps with visibility on a very flat site. They also contrast nicely with Rees' style of berm walled bunkers on the South. The color is an attractive brown, not a blinding white Augusta style. They played nicely as well, fluffy on top but firm enough just a few inches below to allow for ease of extraction.


Native Areas D
One of the great ideas proposed by Phil was to remove a lot of unnecessary turf and replace them with a look that mimics the native canyons surrounding the course. Not only would this save on water but serve to tie the course in to its surroundings. There are dozens of these areas now. They are constructed with a ring of decomposed granite about 10 feet wide encircling native soil. However instead of planting native water wise California species it looks like the went to Home Depot and loaded up on water wise ornamentals. These areas are irrigated with reclaimed water and may look good when tweaked over time but right now they look halfassed.


Conditions B
The 007 Bent Grass greens are fantastic. Very firm with a dense coverage of grass, they putt unbelievably well, the ball rolls perfectly. If you picK the right line you will make a lot of putts, don't be surprised to see a 59 this January. Although we got an inch of rain yesterday there had been no significant rainfall for weeks, yet the fairways were a bit soggy and lies were tight as the grass was very thin. Perhaps a consequence of a lot of heavy machinery driving over the course during construction. Maybe its wet to encourage the overseed but the lies are not what Tour Pros will rave about.

Tees B
There are now 5 sets of tees, Black 7258 are never set out but listed on the scorecard with "permission only" printed next to it. The replacement for the old Blue tees are now called Taupe? They play 6781 yards. The old Whites are now Green and play 6346, trust me these play more like 6,600 with heavy air and little roll. We now have Gold tees at 5851 which is ideal for Seniors and Top Flight ladies. The forward Silver tees are now 5197, still a little long for the average lady but much better than the 5700 slog that previously existed.

OVERALL GRADE B+
Hey what can you expect for 12 million? A 60 year old muni that is busy from dawn to dusk needed a spruce up and the City had the choice to go for an A grade but scrimped; they could have used the 5 million budgeted for a new and completely unnecessary Clubhouse at Balboa and gone all in, but they didn't. I think the team did a great job and could have done better with a bigger budget. Prices have as yet remained unchanged $40 during the week and $50 on the weekend for City residents and $90 weekdays and $100 on the weekend for non-residents. Expect this to change though. Sadly they still use 7 minute spacing on tee times which led to a 5 hour round; we teed off at 10:00. The South switched to 10 minute spacing to accommodate the difficulty and that really makes a bid difference with most rounds finishing in less than 4.5 hours. I think the average SD golfer will appreciate the new layout and it will eventually be even more popular with Tourists than the South course.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 06:48:42 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines North Report Card
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 05:51:37 PM »
Pete,


I have never crossed paths with a golfer who deserved a great course in their back yard more than you. Congrats!!!

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines North Report Card
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2016, 10:55:54 PM »
Pete,

Thanks for the detailed review and comments about the North Course.

I played The South Monday from the whites where I usually play and it was long and inordinately difficult due to the dead air, well watered fairways, narrow fairways and dense rough.

I went back early Thursday morning at 6:20 to play the North and got assigned to an opening with the first group at 7:52. I paid $28 for the resident senior rate and went to the nearby restaurant where I had breakfast and paid $25 with tip.

Due to the length on Monday on the South, I opted for the green tees on The North.  Again the air was dead, so I was glad to be playing it shorter than I normally did the past couple of years.

I was happy to see the redesign of the greens on the new 5th (old 14th) and the new 16th( old 7th ).  These two greens typified what I did not like about many of the old greens, with an overly  steep uniform slope.  The greens did seem to roll true and I had a limited number putts with severe breaks and those were when I was on the wrong tier of the green.  The greens seemed fairly true to my reads and I made a few more putts than I normally do.  The reworking of the greens in their old location is a vast improvement in my opinion.   I thought #12 was a definite improvement with the added length and having to contend with the vegetation short and left.  I agree about the tree removal opening up the course a lot.  The contouring of fairways continues make many of the holes a challenge on the tee shot because they require landing the ball on the correct side of the fairway to avoid a rollout across the fairway.

I had the same thought about a 59 or maybe lower at the Farmers based on the lows that have been posted the past ten years or so.

For people with some familiarity with the course before the redesign, I think they will find it interesting due to incorporation of some of the trends toward fewer trees and more open space.  It is certainly less challenging and more run than the South, but that has been the case as long as I can remember.

Charles Lund


John Crowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines North Report Card
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2016, 12:54:48 PM »
Pete,
Very good and accurate report.


It was fun to get four experienced golfers hailing from North (Canada), East (NY), Midwest (MN), West (CA) together. As it is quite often the case with keen golfers we quickly coalesced around the experience of the day and analysis of the changed course we were playing.


We all agreed that the putting surfaces were excellent. The only exception being that in a few places the internal contours were slightly too pronounced resulting in mower scalping on some high points. I would expect the super and architect are going to correct those situations.


Also agreed is how vistas were opened with tree removal. Although it is a mystery to me why they felt a need to plant "strategic" trees on the new 5th.


The sparse turf conditions on a couple fairways is a concern because I believe that it may be due to soil disruption during the construction process that brought some heavier clay soils closer to the surface. Time will tell.


Overall the North is much improved.


Finally, as much as I detest slow play, when at Torrey it is tolerable because of the wonderful location on that great Pacific sea bluff. Your time between shots can be filled with drinking in the views and clear air. The roar of military jets add a thrill factor.


John

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines North Report Card
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2016, 09:35:21 PM »
What part of the course do you think they spent the most money? What do you wish they spent another million on?




Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines North Report Card
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2016, 10:44:07 AM »
Scott,

When you get a bid for 18 million and then execute that job for 12 million something has to give. I don't have enough insider information to tell what got slashed or what could have been done for more money. I would say the weakness of the project was the execution of the native areas. This was always a concern; where exactly to you obtain plants native to the California canyons? You can't just roll up to Home Depot for that. I don't know if it would be possible to transplant specimens from the State Preserve, but that would seem to be the logical source.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Greg Hohman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines North Report Card
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2016, 03:18:15 PM »
A friend and I arrived at 12:30 yesterday, counting on cancellations due to the rain. We were crushed to learn that the NC has no afternoon tee times. We assume that's a temporary arrangement? We would have paid our resident rate gladly to see at least some of the work.


OT: We played Goat Hill in the morning. If there isn't a GH thread already, perhaps I'll start one.
newmonumentsgc.com