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Rob Marshall

  • Total Karma: -1
Yeamans Hall renovation
« on: December 18, 2016, 08:11:22 PM »
I heard today from friend who played Yeamans a few weeks ago that they were tearing the course up and redoing the fairways and greens. Wasn't there a recent renovation there within the last few years?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Paul Carey

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2016, 08:52:08 AM »
I heard today from friend who played Yeamans a few weeks ago that they were tearing the course up and redoing the fairways and greens. Wasn't there a recent renovation there within the last few years?


I have heard the same thing.  I do know they lost their greens in the Spring of 2016 after the flood in the fall of 2015 and the extremely high rainfalls subsequent to the flooding.  I would guess if they need to shut it down for the greens they might as well redo the fairways.  Regardless, I would see this is a regrassing rather than a renovation.




Anthony Gholz

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Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2016, 10:18:22 AM »
please let this be a restoration of TD's fine work from years ago and NOT a new idea of what's Raynor or not

JC Urbina

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2016, 11:36:03 AM »
Rob,
I have been asked by someone close to Yeamans Hall to address this thread and the work to be done at Yeamans Hall in the spring of 2017. I think it should come from the club what exactly the scope of work is if they choose instead of possible incorrect information. We started with the restoration of Yeamans Hall greens back in 1996. We have restored many of the lost features that go with this splendid Raynor layout. I have restored every green and all of the bunkers with George Waters help except for a few of them done in house by the former superintendent Jim Yonce, Yeamans Hall was in good hands with Jim and now is dutifully watched over by Brooks Riddle. We have continued the work over several years including lowering the tees to natural grade when possible. I will return this spring to work with Brooks and the committee, a lot of good things have gone on at Yeamans Hall and will continue on for the foreseeable future.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 11:37:37 AM by JC Urbina »

Howard Riefs

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2016, 12:08:50 PM »
Thanks, Jim.


Here's the blog where Brooks provides updates on some projects at YH.


http://yhcagronomy.blogspot.com/
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2016, 12:20:34 PM »
Thanks for posting the blog link, Howard.

Good stuff....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Anthony Gholz

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2016, 02:04:35 PM »
Thanks Jim/Howard!  This is a continuation of Jim's efforts


... sigh of relief ...

Rob Marshall

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2016, 02:38:42 PM »
Rob,
I have been asked by someone close to Yeamans Hall to address this thread and the work to be done at Yeamans Hall in the spring of 2017. I think it should come from the club what exactly the scope of work is if they choose instead of possible incorrect information. We started with the restoration of Yeamans Hall greens back in 1996. We have restored many of the lost features that go with this splendid Raynor layout. I have restored every green and all of the bunkers with George Waters help except for a few of them done in house by the former superintendent Jim Yonce, Yeamans Hall was in good hands with Jim and now is dutifully watched over by Brooks Riddle. We have continued the work over several years including lowering the tees to natural grade when possible. I will return this spring to work with Brooks and the committee, a lot of good things have gone on at Yeamans Hall and will continue on for the foreseeable future.

Thanks JC
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Jerry Kluger

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2016, 03:22:54 PM »
I must say that I have never enjoyed a course more even though I was not playing very well at the time.  The greens are simply wonderful and despite my love for them I played in an event and many of the other players did not like them at all - it was a scratch tournament and many of the players were very low handicaps and all they were interested in was their score. (Yes, I was in way over my head but it gave me the opportunity to play 3 rounds at YH.)


Jim: Are USGA specs as critical with Bermuda greens as they are with bent grass greens?

Anthony_Nysse

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2016, 05:58:07 AM »

I must say that I have never enjoyed a course more even though I was not playing very well at the time.  The greens are simply wonderful and despite my love for them I played in an event and many of the other players did not like them at all - it was a scratch tournament and many of the players were very low handicaps and all they were interested in was their score. (Yes, I was in way over my head but it gave me the opportunity to play 3 rounds at YH.)


Jim: Are USGA specs as critical with Bermuda greens as they are with bent grass greens?


Many members and golfers "believe" in USGA greens. I know here in FL, and also from working in SC, having greens that can get moisture through the profile and into the drains quickly is vital to the success of the putting surface. "Push up" greens have all different types of meanings. A push up green of 80 years ago consisted of just that, pushed up soil. The push up type greens of today tend to be made of native material, but is spec'd and blended.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 10:09:18 AM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

JC Urbina

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2016, 09:10:42 AM »
Jerry,

In regards to some players not liking the greens, I have heard that for over 15 years, in fact every time I go back to Yeamans  I hear some remark about one of the greens from a member or a first time player.  For years it was the thumb print on "Short" hole #3.  It is the nature of a Raynor green, You have to be thick skinned to restore a Macdonald or Raynor green. 

Most of you know the quote, I will paraphrase, Putting greens are the face of a portrait.  Some are beautiful, some are less the ideal.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   I hope you continue to enjoy what Yeamans Hall stands for and that is its uniqueness in the golfing world.




Jerry, I think  Anthony answered your question.  I know that this site has several qualified superintendents that could answer the question posed by Jerry, I wish more would chime in on questions of an agronomic nature.  This would keep incorrect information from being discussed.


Not to side track this thread but golf course superintendents are really the backbone of any design.








Blake Conant

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2016, 10:18:26 AM »
Was XGD considered?  If so, what made YH go with USGA spec?

Tom Fagerli

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Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2016, 07:04:45 AM »
Jerry,

In regards to some players not liking the greens, I have heard that for over 15 years, in fact every time I go back to Yeamans  I hear some remark about one of the greens from a member or a first time player.  For years it was the thumb print on "Short" hole #3.  It is the nature of a Raynor green, You have to be thick skinned to restore a Macdonald or Raynor green. 

Most of you know the quote, I will paraphrase, Putting greens are the face of a portrait.  Some are beautiful, some are less the ideal.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   I hope you continue to enjoy what Yeamans Hall stands for and that is its uniqueness in the golfing world.




Jerry, I think  Anthony answered your question.  I know that this site has several qualified superintendents that could answer the question posed by Jerry, I wish more would chime in on questions of an agronomic nature.  This would keep incorrect information from being discussed.


Not to side track this thread but golf course superintendents are really the backbone of any design.



JC- I played in that same tournament as jerry and IMO the greens were  fantastic- fast as fast can be and smooth. They are just difficult to putt! YH Has large greens but they play small. Great place. I have complete confidence that whatever they decide at YH will be correct for their particular place on Earth.

Blake Conant

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2017, 09:00:03 AM »
Brooks Riddle, the superintendent, has been posting photos of work commencing at Yeamans.   


One peculiar thing I saw in his photos were skid steers in bunkers with the goal of "smoothing greenside bunker faces", as Brooks puts it.  The rumpled bunker faces there are pretty damn cool, I'm curious why you'd want to smooth them out?

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2017, 10:07:11 AM »
Brooks Riddle, the superintendent, has been posting photos of work commencing at Yeamans.   


One peculiar thing I saw in his photos were skid steers in bunkers with the goal of "smoothing greenside bunker faces", as Brooks puts it.  The rumpled bunker faces there are pretty damn cool, I'm curious why you'd want to smooth them out?


Brooks has been a very interesting Twitter follow recently. Lots of cool renovation pictures. Looks like they are really going to town on the course.


Regarding the smooth bunker faces, do you think that is to give them the more expected "Raynor" engineered bunker look?
H.P.S.

Jim Franklin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2017, 08:21:43 AM »
I played Yeaman's back in March. It was a chilly day, but the greens were fantastic. They were cut and rolled and were fast and true. I loved the contours on all of them. Get in a bad spot and good luck. I didn't think they needed any changes, but what do I know.
Mr Hurricane

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2017, 01:23:01 PM »
It's interesting to read of this renovation.


When I got involved with Yeamans twenty years ago, it was the result of the last line of my 1995 review of the course in The Confidential Guide:  "Too bad about the greens; fixed up, Yeamans Hall would be terrific."  I rated the course a 5 on the Doak scale; that's how far gone it was.  The greens had shrunk to less than half their original size, and any original contours had been buried under years of heavy topdressing.


The green chairman, Dr. Henry Terrie, called me and asked what I meant about fixing up the greens.  He was the head of the English department at Dartmouth, and had enjoyed my book generally, but didn't really understand what the course had been like originally.  Eventually, he arranged for me to come down to the club and make a presentation on Raynor's work and what Yeamans Hall might have been like ... I showed them a bunch of slides of other Raynor / Macdonald courses and how the same green ideas looked on those.  They had a group within the club called the "Friends of Seth Raynor," and determined that they should try to raise enough money to restore the greens.


Meanwhile, in the back of the room was their landscape consultant, Rick Webel, whom I'd worked with before, and one of the homeowners, William Milliken.  Rick had designed his corporate headquarters.  When I got finished, Mr. Milliken said he'd enjoyed my presentation, and volunteered to fund half the project, if the members would kick in the other half!


So that's how JC Urbina got the green light to rebuild all of Yeamans' greens [except #1 which they'd just spent money on] the first time around.  We had an old blueprint drawing that showed little caterpillar-like marks where the contours had been, and he just spread out the topdressing sand over the whole original green area, and put contours back in those places.  Then they added a bit more good sand, and rotavated it into the profile of the green, and Jim came back with a sand pro to smooth them out.  He did all the work in 35 days, for $3000 per green, with a little bit of editing help from me.


I was surprised to hear that the greens all failed a couple of years ago and I've still never heard how and why it happened ... they were great surfaces for 15 years.  [A non-resident member named Ran Morrissett once told me he thought they were the best set of greens I'd ever built!]  But I know if I'd brought up the idea of building 18 USGA greens back in the late 90's, the project would never have happened at all, and Yeamans would not be thought of as it is today.  It was a stretch at the time for them to do what we did!


I love that place and look forward to getting back to see the finished product sometime.

ward peyronnin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2017, 09:01:30 PM »
My understanding from Claude Bruce was that it was a regrassing endeavor and he mentioned nothing about material changes.

Pox on those who bitch about the greens. Part of the genius of the place is that you have to work damn hard to lose a ball yet the accomplished payer has a hard time holing out if he doesn't miss in the proper spot or develop an awareness of the greens. So they complain about the greens when they don't score. The bogey player can have a pleasurable low stress round and get lucky or aware and still score.

Refer to Dr Mackenzie for that bonus factor with course design.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

BigEdSC

Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2017, 09:26:34 PM »
Yeaman's is a special place.  I was a member there for close to 20 years.  I also remember the renovation Tom and Jim did in 1998.  It was incredible work.  Last year, many golf courses in the low country lost their greens due to the record rain in October 2015.  I don't know the exact cause, but Yeaman's was not an isolated case.


I'm looking forward to seeing a great product.

Bill Vogeney

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2017, 11:22:42 PM »
I second the idea of following Brooks on Twitter. Lots of great pictures.

Simon Holt

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2017, 09:00:51 AM »
Has all the work been done in-house or did they have anyone consult?


I was lucky to play recently and I absolutely loved it.  We are prone to comparison here and I find it hard to differentiate between Yeamans and Chicago GC yet one resides in the top 25 of many world lists and the other just outside the most recent GOLF world top 100 list.  Perhaps Chicago has a more interesting piece of land in terms of elevation changes but I'd argue that Yeamans has the better setting.


The templates holes are just as well laid out as the more storied Raynors in the North; it genuinely had a CGC/NGLA of the South feel to it. 


I may have got carried away with the comparisons but it was a lot of fun and I would say it could certainly go toe to toe with Chicago. 100% if we focus on the greens.



2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2017, 09:19:35 AM »
Jim Urbina has been consulting there on his own, since he left my company.

Jack Carney

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2017, 09:38:06 AM »
I got the opportunity both before and after Toms last work and agree how special the property is; timeless in a way not seen in the US very much. Now I have to go see the latest - thanks for the info.


$3000 per green - where do we sign up?

Ted Sturges

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2017, 01:07:48 PM »
I now have had the pleasure of enjoying several rounds at YHC since it reopened this fall.  Like most others who have seen it and played it since it was reopened, I believe the course is the best I have seen it since my first visit there in 1991.  We have re-grassed the fairways and they are a better and more consistent playing surface than I have ever seen there.  We have also rebuilt all the greens and several were "softened" just a bit, including 1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 15 and 16.  By softened, I mean that the "thumb prints" or "hogs back" features are slightly softened from their previous versions, and I believe all have been improved. 


I echo the sentiments above which compared YHC favorably to Chicago Golf Club.  I have long been a fan of YHC and first joined there in 1998.  Though I don't have the breadth of world class course viewing that Ran and Tom D have (who does?), YHC remains on my very short list of places I most enjoy playing.  I now believe YHC is a Doak 9. Over the years, I have gone between a Doak 8 and a Doak 9 on Yeamans.  An "8" is:  "One of the very best courses in its region, and worth a special trip to see.  Could have some drawbacks, but these will be clearly spelled out, and will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout."  A "9" is:  "An outstanding course and certainly one of the best in the world with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes.  You should see this course sometime in your life."  (Doak Scale).


There are zero weak holes.  The routing is ideal.  There are several world class holes. The conditioning is firm and fast.  The ambiance of the place is off the charts.  I can't list twenty other courses I have played that I would rather play than YHC.  To me, it's a 9.


TS

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Yeamans Hall renovation
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2017, 01:15:25 PM »
Ted,


I would love your impression of #17 post-remodel. That hole incurred more changes than any other on the course this go-around, and now represents “Punchbowl” much more effectively than it did before.


Thanks.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017