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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« on: December 14, 2016, 07:24:07 PM »
I'm the first to admit I don't spend much time digging into the intricacies of the ODG's designs and those of other architects except to see what I like and figure why I like it.  That's why I have never had a desire to get into reworking bunkers or greens on someone else's design.  I'm not saying anything negative towards those who do enjoy such, I'm just saying it's not my thing. 

Anyway, I feel I can walk out and distinguish between a true Ross, McKenzie, Raynor, RTJ Sr., Rees, Palmer, Dye  or Nicklaus brands...(I can't look at Player ;D ;D )   And I feel there was a progression from the early 20th century until the late 20th century.
But I really don't see much ingenuity or change in the present works ( last 15 years)  Seems to me that all of the younger talent seems to be staying with the basics they were taught by the Doaks or Coores etc.  The guys who were with Dye went out and had their styles and they were often quite different from Dye.  I don't see such a change or a desire for such.  It may just be me but I see a lull.  Was it brought on due to most of these younger guys  we discuss having always worked for guys who had the top sites or have many in the business chosen to just work for someone and not get into the fray of fighting for work?   It's time for someone to come out with the next new thing...tired of jagged bunkers.... 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2016, 07:34:10 PM »
Mike,


You missed the thread about the " Bad Little Nine ".
Seems plenty out of the box to me.


Sincerely,


Disciple trying to be his own man
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2016, 07:45:48 PM »
Group think's not group think when you're the one thinking it ;)


My theory is there was a lot of unusual/different stuff (that really sucked) 20 years ago, but the relative shortage of architects (or high demand for work) alowed them to get away with it -for a while.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 07:52:23 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2016, 07:58:21 PM »
Mike,


You missed the thread about the " Bad Little Nine ".
Seems plenty out of the box to me.


Sincerely,


Disciple trying to be his own man

Joe,  send me a link....I didn't say there would not be exceptions....Merry Christmas...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2016, 09:17:17 PM »
 8)  Dear tired of jagged bunkers,


did you once say:
A Waffle House waitress is more native to the South than a Jagged edged bunker..
that was almost 10 years ago...


whatever the progression, being consistent is probably a virtue or not?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 09:18:59 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2016, 09:21:03 PM »
8)  Dear tired of jagged bunkers,


did you once say:
A Waffle House waitress is more native to the South than a Jagged edged bunker..
that was almost 10 years ago...


whatever the progression, being consistent is probably a virtue or not?

And still is ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ryan Farrow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2016, 11:10:18 AM »
Mike, I am tired of the jagged bunker style as well, but lets say I choose a different bunker style and build something with clean lines and a rolled down grass face. I am still going to follow the basics I was taught.


I don't see any innovation with design, just architects picking and choosing what design elements are important to them. The only innovation I see is being able to dramatically improve a golf course without spending a fortune. How can I make a mom and pop course fun and interesting without spending 1 or 2 or 10 million dollars. That is the only place I see innovation but that is hard way to make a living.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2016, 11:16:36 AM »
Mike, I am tired of the jagged bunker style as well, but lets say I choose a different bunker style and build something with clean lines and a rolled down grass face. I am still going to follow the basics I was taught.


I don't see any innovation with design, just architects picking and choosing what design elements are important to them. The only innovation I see is being able to dramatically improve a golf course without spending a fortune. How can I make a mom and pop course fun and interesting without spending 1 or 2 or 10 million dollars. That is the only place I see innovation but that is hard way to make a living.

Ryan,
I think you are on the right track.  You can make a good living dealing with Moms and pops but you will not be in the magazines.   ;D ;D   And I think a lot of young guys are infatuated with that but they soon learn it's overrated...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Peter Pallotta

Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 11:23:31 AM »
We all have our 'styles' in life and in our work, our 'creative personalities' as it were. The neurotics among us are always wondering if their style and personality is right/good enough, and are prone to continually trying to change so that others might find them acceptable. That's unfortunate and sad for them, as it is a painful and difficult way to go through life; but I think there is a danger on the other end of the spectrum as well, i.e. the confident and healthy-minded among us who have had so much success with their particular brand of style and creative personality that they no longer question it. At best they stop growing as people and as artists; at worst they get lazy -- with every situation (or piece of land, in the case of gca) appearing to them tailor-made for doing yet again the same thing that has worked in the past. There is the minimalism-in-the-work, and I think that is always good, or at least always a good goal; but there is also a kind of minimalism-of-the-eye that is more akin to a pair of blinkers than to an ideal. It's when we see only what we want to see, through a narrow tunnel of habit and past success, instead of what's really there and the new possibilities inherent in that. 


Peter       

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2016, 12:51:06 PM »
Disciple trying to be his own man


Love it!

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 01:17:46 PM »

Mike,


There is plenty of innovation, this is not the place to find it. It's not about strategy or aesthetics - which is where you began this thread - its about sustainability, economics and unusual collaborations.


The innovation is in how things get done.
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 01:25:28 PM »

Mike,


There is plenty of innovation, this is not the place to find it. It's not about strategy or aesthetics - which is where you began this thread - its about sustainability, economics and unusual collaborations.


The innovation is in how things get done.

Ian,
Merry Christmas....I'm talking style...IMHO sustainability, economics etc take care of themselves...JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 02:20:35 PM »
This reminds me of that stripped down architecture thread. I know it will sound strange to say, considering the source, but I'm kinda over the "shaping contest" as I like to call it. We seem to be in the high baroque period and bunkers are the poster child. I'm totally all in to try to build something completely different. I know there are more "disciples", to use Joe's word, that are interested in different.

The question is will there be the right developer willing to take the risk with the right "disciple". There is more on the line for the developer to lose than a new architect that pushed it too far. The right circumstances surrounding the project must also exist in way that either its success or failure has an impact.

I'm not sure its possible to truly shift the paradigm in a renovation because you would need to go way beyond just the look and effect the concept of "hazard" in a way that changes the way they are constructed, deal with water, and maintenance as much as the way they look or played from.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 02:23:48 PM by Jaeger Kovich »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 11:06:22 PM »
This reminds me of that stripped down architecture thread. I know it will sound strange to say, considering the source, but I'm kinda over the "shaping contest" as I like to call it. We seem to be in the high baroque period and bunkers are the poster child. I'm totally all in to try to build something completely different. I know there are more "disciples", to use Joe's word, that are interested in different.

The question is will there be the right developer willing to take the risk with the right "disciple". There is more on the line for the developer to lose than a new architect that pushed it too far. The right circumstances surrounding the project must also exist in way that either its success or failure has an impact.

I'm not sure its possible to truly shift the paradigm in a renovation because you would need to go way beyond just the look and effect the concept of "hazard" in a way that changes the way they are constructed, deal with water, and maintenance as much as the way they look or played from.

Jaeger,
As a senior in high school I got to spend a summer working on an RTJ course inmy ton picking rocks and various other things....the magazine talk at the time was about the course Jack Nicklaus(Pete Dye whom no one had heard of) on Hilton Head Island.  The mags were saying might be the most difficult thing ever and the hazards etc would be unmatched...I saw it a couple of years later and that is what I'm talking about when I say change....I don't know when that type of thing will come around again....I just hope it doesn't involve a "shaping contest" ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2016, 03:41:27 AM »
Well..I hope the next change is a shaping contest.  Meaning sparse use of bunkering (I mean less than 20) and more meaningful, not natural style shaping.  I can't get my head around the completely redundant insistance on natural shaping...its old news...like 20 years old now and courses look the same even if they don't play the same.  I know there is faction of folks which say the visuals don't matter, but they do and its time for different visuals.  I really do not believe modern guys have begun to grasp the concept of what shaping can be when really pushed.  I am hoping that with the push for wider courses there will be more effective small to mid-size shaping because now the shaping would be seen rather than buried in rough.


Ciao 
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2016, 05:33:46 AM »
Mike:  I agree with your premise but you know as well as anyone that it's hard to find opportunities to build something very different when there is so little new work going on.  Those kinds of shifts usually happen in boom periods when everyone is competing for attention; whereas today you only have to beat 5 other courses for "Best New" so you'd better not screw up!


It does seem like the place for innovation right now is on smaller projects that aren't up for rankings.  A friend texted me yesterday about that "bad little nine," saying he was blown away.  Sweetens Cove looks a bit like a "shaping contest" in the photos I've seen, but posters here seem to love it, and Ally's new nine at Carne is nothing if not daring. 


The new Mulligan course we've done for Ballyneal has a couple of wild holes I would never have built on a regulation course.  Similar but different, the little nine hole course we built ten years ago at Aetna Springs has a bunch of small-scale stuff you never see on big courses nowadays.  I had pretty good crews on both of those, really just had to turn them loose and not mess them up.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2016, 06:06:23 AM »
I dont see the shift happening on a "perfect" site in sand dunes. I think its gonna happen on a "less than ideal" site with heavier soils where there is a reason to do something radical with the way water is dealt with through shaping.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2016, 06:08:47 AM »
Sweetens is an absolute "shaping contest" or "high baroque" type course... or to pull a Spinal Tap reference, the volume is on 11.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2016, 06:18:38 AM »
This reminds me of that stripped down architecture thread. I know it will sound strange to say, considering the source, but I'm kinda over the "shaping contest" as I like to call it. We seem to be in the high baroque period and bunkers are the poster child. I'm totally all in to try to build something completely different. I know there are more "disciples", to use Joe's word, that are interested in different.

The question is will there be the right developer willing to take the risk with the right "disciple". There is more on the line for the developer to lose than a new architect that pushed it too far. The right circumstances surrounding the project must also exist in way that either its success or failure has an impact.

I'm not sure its possible to truly shift the paradigm in a renovation because you would need to go way beyond just the look and effect the concept of "hazard" in a way that changes the way they are constructed, deal with water, and maintenance as much as the way they look or played from.

Jaeger,
As a senior in high school I got to spend a summer working on an RTJ course inmy ton picking rocks and various other things....the magazine talk at the time was about the course Jack Nicklaus(Pete Dye whom no one had heard of) on Hilton Head Island.  The mags were saying might be the most difficult thing ever and the hazards etc would be unmatched...I saw it a couple of years later and that is what I'm talking about when I say change....I don't know when that type of thing will come around again....I just hope it doesn't involve a "shaping contest" ;D


Mike - I am very much looking forward to something that far out of the box again... And hopefully sooner than later!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2016, 06:40:53 AM »
Similar but different, the little nine hole course we built ten years ago at Aetna Springs has a bunch of small-scale stuff you never see on big courses nowadays.  I had pretty good crews on both of those, really just had to turn them loose and not mess them up.


In fact, now that I think about it, there is more scope for doing something really different when you have some cover -- i.e., when you are doing it for someone else so that you don't have to worry about doing a face-plant in your debut.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2016, 09:45:21 AM »
As TD says the major hold up on this is the lack of new work. 

Jaeger,
I love the "shaping contest" .  It's a great description of so much that's happening now. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2016, 10:45:50 AM »

Randy T and I discussed this a bit online, and I was recently speaking with other architects about it, but I see a bit of "Throw the kitchen sink at it" mentality.  You never know in this climate if its your last big project, so many of us tend to try stuff we never did, or put every idea we ever liked in a project.  Not sure if that will be a good or bad thing, but it could be a small period where designs are recognized for perhaps over doing it, even at a time when owners probably need the most practical designs ever in most cases.


As to the shaping contest, in my mind, it had to happen.  Every architect was looking for something new to try, and earthmoving was probably the cheapest new thing. Then, in typical "pendulum swings to far" mode, it went nearly completely the other way.  Not so sure somewhere in the middle isn't the best conceptual place to land.


As to the next big thing, agree jagged bunkers should run their course.  If we spent the last decade modeling after the 20's, I guess someone will start touting the 50's as this decades model.  You wonder why there is no creativity when the basic hype in gca as always been to emulate the past?  At least the shaping contest was original thinking, but like modern art, seems to have failed to find an audience.  But, just think, in about 50 years, architects will be emulating the 90's-2006 era.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2016, 12:49:33 PM »
Have humps and hollows become excessively smooth over the decades?


Scroll through these photos from Yelverton GC on the edge of Dartmoor in Devon - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48487.msg1494280.html#msg1494280


Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: The individual archie progression after leaving a mentor...
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2016, 01:33:07 PM »
Have humps and hollows become excessively smooth over the decades?


Scroll through these photos from Yelverton GC on the edge of Dartmoor in Devon - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48487.msg1494280.html#msg1494280



In America, and perhaps elsewhere, the main reason for this is so people driving golf carts [buggies] across the ground don't get upset.