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Mark_Fine

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I have to admit, I use this line myself when talking in particular about older golf courses.  I often state that the primary defense of many older courses is the green complex as top modern day players can overpower many of the older designs. 


The point of this thread is twofold.  The first is are we giving too much credit to the greens and in how and why they were designed?  As we all know, much of the contour on older greens was added to create surface drainage, to make sure there was no standing water on the green surface.  Furthermore, the subtle contours on many older greens came from settling over time (the dead guys weren’t laser measuring green slope and building in every little “strategic” nuance that we give them credit for).  Some like Mackenzie are known for their lines about getting "the town drunk to shape the green”.  Tillinghast for example, enjoyed napping under a tree with a bottle of Scotch while his greens were being shaped for him.  Don’t get me wrong, these guys knew what they were doing (I think)  ;D , but I wonder how much they really believed that the greens they were building were the true defense of their golf courses? 


The second point of this thread is that these days the average or even above average golfer has enough trouble just getting to the green let alone finally reaching the surface and then having to deal with clown’s mouths and ski slopes on grass rolling at 11 or 12 on the stimp meter.  It is a very hard game in general for all but the best players in the world.  Doesn't the game need to be more fun and faster and more rewarding for most.  Do we really have to “defend par and the golf course with overly difficult greens”? 

Ian Andrew

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Mark,

As for your first question - don't know of the top of my head.

Everyone can roll a ball with a putter.
Very few can hit a ball in the air, particularly with spin and stop it on the green.


The slopes of a green dictate play more than bunkers unless you can get close enough to nullify the slopes.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 09:58:24 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Tom_Doak

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I don't know who first said that either; I don't believe it is in any of the ODG books.  But my reasoning has always been just what Ian stated above.


When I was working for Perry Dye he once said we needed to make the greens flat because we had done so much shaping from tee to green.  It sounded completely backwards to me, because it was so much more disruptive and expensive to reshape the first 400 yards of a hole than the last 30, so I resolved to do it the other way around.  And once you swear off excessive length and lots of hazards, defending the hole at the green is the only real alternative left.

Mark_Fine

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I don't think there is a right answer here nor was I looking for one.  Like most things in life, it is all about proper balance.  Too much of anything is usually not good and that definitely applies to golf course architecture.  I don't mind a wild and crazy green but a constant diet of them can wear you out.   


I have seen a lot of golf courses and have seen a lot of play and am coming to the realization that this is a very hard and time consuming game for the far majority of people who try to play it.  I am not at all advocating "dumbing down" golf courses or building all flat featureless greens, but I do think that the game needs to become more fun and enjoyable for the masses. 


Ian you commented on another thread about Pinehurst #2 being a model for public play.  I just don't see that at all.  If my old golf league played their weekly nine hole matches there, half of them would give up the game as the greens are far too difficult for them (despite never losing a golf ball on the rest of the course).  It would be cool for a few rounds to play a famous U.S. Open venue but it would get old fast as five putting and/or chipping back and forth across those greens like ping pong wears you out. 


This goes back to one of my points, how difficult do we really need to make the golfing experience?   

Ian Andrew

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Ian you commented on another thread about Pinehurst #2 being a model for public play.  I just don't see that at all.  If my old golf league played their weekly nine hole matches there, half of them would give up the game as the greens are far too difficult for them (despite never losing a golf ball on the rest of the course).  It would be cool for a few rounds to play a famous U.S. Open venue but it would get old fast as five putting and/or chipping back and forth across those greens like ping pong wears you out. 

This goes back to one of my points, how difficult do we really need to make the golfing experience?

I have quite a few rounds there - and importantly at various green speeds
At 9 - which I got to enjoy - the course was fun and playable.
I'd love to play it like that every day...



I played it once in a serious event.
I putted - yes putted - into the same bunker twice after hitting the green in regulation.
It removed the thrill of playing there - just like long thick rough and narrow fairways does now at Bethpage

It's all about set-up at Pinehurst.
But I get your point Mark.


With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Mark_Fine

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Ian,
I agree that setup is key #2.  But we also know that Donald Ross would not recognize those turtleback greens.  On that note, would you say that Donald Ross was "defending par at the green" when he designed #2 or were they just one aspect of his defense for each hole.  Today, they are the defense especially when they are rolling in double digits. 

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