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Dave McCollum

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #250 on: December 17, 2016, 11:55:12 AM »
I wasn’t ever much in this argument.  As a course owner competing against muni golf for golfers, I’m obviously on Mike and Archie’s side.  I don’t know how it is in other communities, but in ours golf is used as a perk for working for the city (probably at sub-standard wages).  Admistrators, cops, firemen, road workers—essentially most city employees—get greatly discounted rates to play at the muni.  So cheap, as a matter of fact, the season pass rates sound like 50 years ago.  I think maybe department heads play for free.  Is this good or bad for the taxpayer?  I’ll leave that for you guys to sort out.

Ironically, a few years ago some cop friends of ours, who would much rather play our course, made a proposal to us to offer a similar deal to basically the first responder community.  It may have given us 50 to 100 new season pass holders (paying about half of our then current rates).  They wanted to play a better course with a better clubhouse atmosphere.  If anyone wants to derail this thread/debate further, imagine yourself as the owner and say what you would decide.   If you care, I’ll tell what I did later.

BHoover

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #251 on: December 17, 2016, 02:18:38 PM »
I don't disagree with your situation as a course owner, Dave. Where I disagree was with Mike Young's blanket (and foolish) statement that all muni golf courses should be shut down, or that lack of competition would lead to lower prices.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #252 on: December 17, 2016, 02:50:41 PM »
I'd like to hear more, Dave, including what your decision was. I hope your decision was 'no'. First responders deserve our respect, as people and professionals -- but as a golfer his was a class-less move IMO.  He wants a better course, a better clubhouse, and a better atmosphere but wants to pay half of what everyone else is paying? No, I don't think you need that kind of golfer. With friends like that, who needs enemies? But of course, I have no stake in the game -- and I'd appreciate your perspective.


Peter

Mike_Young

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #253 on: December 17, 2016, 05:02:17 PM »
I don't disagree with your situation as a course owner, Dave. Where I disagree was with Mike Young's blanket (and foolish) statement that all muni golf courses should be shut down, or that lack of competition would lead to lower prices.

Brian,
I'm glad you agree with Dave.  My "foolish" statement is still that the government should not compete with private citizens for non essential services that can be provided better by the private sector.  Good fair competition leads to lower pricing.  Trying to compete for public play with a muni is anything but.  Two different playing fields entirely. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #254 on: December 17, 2016, 05:17:22 PM »
I'd like to hear more, Dave, including what your decision was. I hope your decision was 'no'. First responders deserve our respect, as people and professionals -- but as a golfer his was a class-less move IMO.  He wants a better course, a better clubhouse, and a better atmosphere but wants to pay half of what everyone else is paying? No, I don't think you need that kind of golfer. With friends like that, who needs enemies? But of course, I have no stake in the game -- and I'd appreciate your perspective.


Peter
Peter,
We have always allowed the policemen, firemen, retired military and active military play for $25 bucks, any kid under 10 plays free and after that pays a dollar for each year of age until 17.  If they can't pay we find something for them to do such as picking the range.  We let three high schools play for free during the season and ask that they pick up sticks for two Saturdays during that time.
I think that is fair.
Your other statement is interesting:  He wants a better course, a better clubhouse, and a better atmosphere but wants to pay half of what everyone else is paying? No, I don't think you need that kind of golfer. With friends like that, who needs enemies? Think about that statement.  Do you know how often that is carried out in muni courses and how often it affects a guy who has sent years working on his privately owned public competing course?  It happens often.If section 8 housing was built like we bild public courses we would all be wanting to live in it. ;D

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #255 on: December 17, 2016, 05:54:24 PM »
Is higher education a government function? Should public colleges compete with the privates?  Isn't Berkeley a competitor with Stanford?

Education is for all...it should be a government function.  Bad comparison....

Private schools can still suck in the student loan program...let the private public golf courses use the muni bonds that can be paid back by the taxpayers....


Since health care is for all and essential I assume you believe it is a government function?


Also, on Cape Cod many, many of the towns have munis with very 'cheap' annual fees, under 1k.  This is clearly an attraction to the retired folks.  Is this acceptable?

archie_struthers

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #256 on: December 17, 2016, 06:22:59 PM »
 ::) ::) ::)




Just had to come back if only for a small bite of the apple.  Cliff, subsidizing golf for millions of dollars by the taxpayer is not a good use of our tax money .


It's outrageous in fact .

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #257 on: December 17, 2016, 06:35:33 PM »
 But what if on Cape Cod it is necessary to "compete" with the town next door. It is not dissimilar from a wealthy suburb spending more on their schools to attract residents.  Home values go up increasing the tax basis. Is that necessarily a bad use of taxpayer money?

archie_struthers

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #258 on: December 17, 2016, 06:51:04 PM »
 ::) 8)




Cliff are you really serious . Cape Cod needs subsidized golf to make it ?   Falmouth average single family home sells for over $1,250,000.   


Did you read any of the other posts about competition ?  Why do we bother
Trying to make rational arguments. No wonder people with good golf knowledge leave discouraged or disgusted !


John Kavanaugh

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #259 on: December 17, 2016, 06:55:29 PM »
Please know your audience. If a member of this board isn't or has not been a rater they want to be a rater. It's all about free golf and unlimited access. We are the society of golfing socialists.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #260 on: December 17, 2016, 07:03:58 PM »
::) 8)




Cliff are you really serious . Cape Cod needs subsidized golf to make it ?   Falmouth average single family home sells for over $1,250,000.   


Did you read any of the other posts about competition ?  Why do we bother
Trying to make rational arguments. No wonder people with good golf knowledge leave discouraged or disgusted !


It is not coincidence that the mid cape is where the munis are.  That is not falmouth, Sandwich Orleans, Chatham.. I shouldn't be but I'm a bit surprised you're such an ideologue.


The best example of where public monies should not go is the galloping Hill clubhouse. A monstrosity and public money should not be  used to compete with the public catering business.


 At the same time Cape Cod is a unique circumstance.  It is full of retirees and it is essential that towns do what they need to enter to attract those dollars.   The competition in this case is with other towns not with privately owned publics , which are largely nonexistent on the Cape I am a bit surprised that you don't recognize that.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 07:11:29 PM by Cliff Hamm »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #261 on: December 17, 2016, 07:04:05 PM »
Is higher education a government function? Should public colleges compete with the privates?  Isn't Berkeley a competitor with Stanford?

Education is for all...it should be a government function.  Bad comparison....

Private schools can still suck in the student loan program...let the private public golf courses use the muni bonds that can be paid back by the taxpayers....


Since health care is for all and essential I assume you believe it is a government function?


Also, on Cape Cod many, many of the towns have munis with very 'cheap' annual fees, under 1k.  This is clearly an attraction to the retired folks.  Is this acceptable?

Healthcare has always been a government function...for those who dont have insurance it has always been emergency rooms.  It worked better than the last few years.  Just give me one reason why golf should be a government function....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #262 on: December 17, 2016, 07:06:07 PM »
::) 8)




Cliff are you really serious . Cape Cod needs subsidized golf to make it ?   Falmouth average single family home sells for over $1,250,000.   


Did you read any of the other posts about competition ?  Why do we bother
Trying to make rational arguments. No wonder people with good golf knowledge leave discouraged or disgusted !

Are you saying we don't have good golf knowledge.  Competition???  Do you think you local government should compete with it's taxpayers for business?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #263 on: December 17, 2016, 07:14:24 PM »
Mike,


Its more than just golf.  Its about having open/green spaces for the public at an affordable price.


Think of it as large parks in every city across America, but instead of getting nothing back on the return, you at least recoup most of the cost to maintaining the green space.  I think its a terrific deal for everyone.


P.S.  Since this thread has taken a political twist, funny that some complain about the millions in subsidies for munis meanwhile corporations get the tens of billions in the form of tax breaks and other breaks from John Q Taxpayer..but heaven forbid public munis get a teeny tiny piece of that.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #264 on: December 17, 2016, 07:19:43 PM »
Is higher education a government function? Should public colleges compete with the privates?  Isn't Berkeley a competitor with Stanford?

Education is for all...it should be a government function.  Bad comparison....

Private schools can still suck in the student loan program...let the private public golf courses use the muni bonds that can be paid back by the taxpayers....


Since health care is for all and essential I assume you believe it is a government function?


Also, on Cape Cod many, many of the towns have munis with very 'cheap' annual fees, under 1k.  This is clearly an attraction to the retired folks.  Is this acceptable?

Healthcare has always been a government function...for those who dont have insurance it has always been emergency rooms.  It worked better than the last few years.  Just give me one reason why golf should be a government function....


 Emergency room is not healthcare. I'll leave it at that.  Isn't it a bit inconsistent to believe government should be involved in education but not real healthcare? What good is education if you have no health?


As to the matter at hand, it is up to a society to decide  what is a government function. That is what divides us today. Recreation though has always been a government function. Municipal golf courses are part of that. 


 As like many others, my golf began at Gallopingin Hill in New Jersey. (Caddiedn at Baltustrol. Played on Mondays. The two experiences couldn't have been more similar 😎) At that time there were no private, public golf courses in the area that I can think of.

Mike_Young

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #265 on: December 17, 2016, 07:30:33 PM »
Municipalities have heath departments that provide the needed vaccinations , shots etc and the emergency room id where the uninsured would go.  My wife has managed the emergency room in our town for over 15 years and taking care of the uninsured was performed better before we were supposedly all insured. 

With due respect it doesn't matter where your golf began or where it is today.  Give me one reason why the government should provide golf.  Should they also provide bowling?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #266 on: December 17, 2016, 07:49:11 PM »
 Again, as I stated it is up to society to decide what is a government function. Recreation has been deemed a government function in America. Bowling has not been included.  Is that right or wrong? I don't know, it's just what we have as a society decided.


 We typically have not focused on indoor sports. No indoor tennis courts, bowling, swimming pools generally, etc. that's what society has decided.



 Pickle ball is currently quite popular in retirement communities. I suspect we will see municipalities building pickle ball courts. Is that a good use of taxpayer money? It is up to the taxpayers to decide that.


They have decided in many places that a golf course is what they want.  That is especially true on Cape Cod.  Keep in mind as I stated, there are a few privately owned public courses on the Cape.   One must always look at the unique circumstances and not simply be idealogical.


 As to healthcare what makes you so sure that things were better before we were supposedly all insured? Is that your personal experience?  If so why bother to ever have health insurance? Before we were supposedly all insured how did folks obtain needed medication such as for blood pressure?  I could go on and on with healthcare  as we have far from a perfect system. Folks delude themselves to think that emergency rooms equals healthcare.


« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 07:52:03 PM by Cliff Hamm »

archie_struthers

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #267 on: December 17, 2016, 11:12:01 PM »
 :P




Cliff , call me inquisitive but just wondering if you ever owned a business or had to make a payroll by going in your own pocket. If not that's fine but if not you really don't have the same perspective as we do. I'm not alone in seeing that government overreach has disgusted many in America . Look no further than this heinous election cycle.


If not , could you at least try to see another point of view ?


When people lose their livelihoods or are threatened by the government most crawl in a hole or run .  There is no fighting  them . So if they decide to compete with you it's not good. You need them to approve your sewer permit, your water allocation permit etc etc etc.  Imagine every inspection you need to stay or get open is at the whim of your competitor.  They can delay , obstruct, lose, overcharge and scare you . There is nothing that protects you from them , no laws . They are the law.  Anyone who doesn't understand that just hasn't pulled a permit or waited for an inspection, never been red tagged for no reason , or a frivolous one .


I'm lucky , our golf course is successful and we probably will remain that way . Not all people in this business are blessed with a good course and a spectacular location , we are . Our employees are loyal and hard working  , we are truly blessed .


I'm going to stop here , really . Hope it evokes some consideration .

« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 11:16:56 PM by archie_struthers »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #268 on: December 17, 2016, 11:40:55 PM »
I feel compelled, as I have watched this thread devolve into muni bashing, to point out that the history of munis involved efforts of private club members, in the late 1890s  and early 1900s, in New York City, Philadelphia, Boston, etc to create golf courses for the masses just as they built swimming pools, tennis courts, picnic grounds, etc.
See https://www.nycgovparks.org/about/history/golf and the Cobbs Creek threads here on GCA.  The primary purpose was recreational as golfers actually walked in those days. Munis spread throughout the county up to WWII. Does anyone know when the first privately owned daily fee non resort course opened in the USA?
In any event, when privately owned daily fee courses first started they KNEW they were competing with munis. Today we have many privately owned daily fee courses. Some are CCFAD as they became popular during the boom years and others are "mom and pop" operations. Even today, some munis are being built. Why? Certainly not recreational given the cartball mentality of golfers but rather keeping open space. Certainly, some munis should not have been built- Emerald Dunes was built  almost adjacent to and after  Archie Struthers Twisted Dune opened at the NJ shore and is a prime example. Recently, The Max Mandel course in Laredo , TX was built on 300 acres donated by Mandel to the city. I'm not familiar with competing daily fee golf courses there but The Mandel course garnered favorable reviews and is quite busy.
Here in Phoenix, 2 old muni courses have been leased long term to universities, one of which - Papago- was immensely popular until the high end daily fee courses like Troon North & Grayhawk were built for the tourist trade and local trade in the off season. The other, Maryvale, was run down but the lessee, Grand Canyon U, spent 10M to upgrade the course and clubhouse.
The bottom line, IMO, is that anyone developing a daily fee today or in the recent past in an area with existing munis knows the risks and really shouldn't bash pre-existing munis. If governments want to sell or operate them or lease them, then so be it. 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 11:11:32 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

A.G._Crockett

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Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #269 on: December 19, 2016, 09:06:01 AM »
Municipalities have heath departments that provide the needed vaccinations , shots etc and the emergency room id where the uninsured would go.  My wife has managed the emergency room in our town for over 15 years and taking care of the uninsured was performed better before we were supposedly all insured. 


Mike, this is completely incorrect.  I understand your political leanings, but it is a simple fact that emergency room care is THE most expensive medical care, and that uninsured people by definition postpone care until they end up in the ER, often far too late for their own best interests and recovery.  The issue is NOT the quality of medical care in the ER;  that isn't in dispute.   The issue is how to best provide health care services and how to correctly assign the costs.  I wish we weren't the ONLY western democracy with a private insurance model for that, but we are. 

In any case, I see ZERO connection between government involvement in recreation, however that is to be defined and whether or not it is to include muni golf, and the simple fact that EVERY person WILL be a consumer of health care services. 



"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #270 on: December 19, 2016, 09:48:22 AM »
A couple of points and a lot of rambling:

In regards to why the development boom occurred, which is ultimately the issue here, I have some insight into that since I was part of the problem.  Up until the early 90's, building a golf course was generally a bad proposition.  First, there were very few buyers of golf courses, and developers didn't want to get stuck owning a golf course.  Second, in part due to the first problem, there was a rule of thumb that you could expect to get 70-80% of your money back when you sold - not exactly music to a developer's ears.  Third, running a golf course wasn't terribly profitable because there wasn't a lot of sophistication in management.  Pros ran the shop, chefs ran the F&B, and the rest just sort of ran itself.  Last, with the exception of California and a few other places, there really wasn't a huge housing boom going on, so the premium you could get on your golf course frontage lots was less in dollar terms. 

In the 90's, that all changed.  First, the 90's housing boom increased the value of lots, and if you throw a 30-40% premium on the dollar value of a lot, that's a lot of real dollars, especially when a lot of lots were selling at a ferocious pace.  Second, ClubCorp and American/National Golf became active, well capitalized buyers of golf courses, and later, everyone else jumped in - developers now had an exit strategy.  Add in lenders that would finance golf courses (ORIX, Greyrock, Textron, et al) where none existed 5 years earlier, and you've got a massive change to the overall finances of getting a course built and sold.  Third, golf courses became much more profitable, through a combination of better management (led in part by ClubCorp and American Golf), booming interest in golf (pre-Tiger), and a booming economy which particularly increased the amount of corporate business.  There were courses that I knew where 25-30% of play was from corporate outings.  For a while in the mid 90's, most courses sold for prices ABOVE the cost to construct.  Add in the NGF prognostication about a course a day (which was actually issued in 1987) and developers had no reason NOT to build a golf course - the demand was coming. On an individual basis, it was a no brainer.

The problem was that the IMPACT all of the new supply, especially the high end daily fee courses, landed at once from 1999 - 2001.  Each individual course may have had decent economics, but when you add them all together, it's a problem.  I remember doing a deal on the Virginia side of DC in the late 90's which was absolutely booming at the time.  You couldn't raise greens fees fast enough.  A few courses opened, but it really didn't seem to have an impact.  Then 6 new courses opened in the space of about 12 months.  Epic disaster.  Rounds plummeted.  Then rates plummeted but rounds still didn't increase.  Epic wipeout. But almost nobody saw it coming.  Everyone thought the demand was endless, because it had been up until that point.  But hindsight is 20/20.

Keep in mind that most developers during that period did fine.  They sold and moved on to the next deal, understanding the current market economics.  Even the ones who sold post 2001 did fine because their lot premiums exceeded any loss on sale.  It's the guys who bought 1998 - 2002 (also 2004 - 2007, but that was for different reasons) who got their clocks cleaned.  But that's how the market works. 
[/size]Also keep in mind that golf courses are a very local business, each with different supply/demand characteristics.  You add ten courses to a big market like New York and it has absolutely no impact.  Add just one in a smaller market like Atlantic City and it's a game changer.  Also making broad generalizations about the impact of large clubhouses, golfnow, or membership structures is extremely narrow sighted.

[/size]One fact:  In my database, I have a list of 4300 courses that opened after 1990.  450 of those were municipal, 3,000 were public and the other 900 were private although the same number of privates converted to daily fee or closed during that time. 

[/font]

Dave McCollum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #271 on: December 19, 2016, 11:30:43 AM »
Not many takers, but I said I’d say what we did re: first responders discounts.  We said no mostly for the reasons already mentioned—out of respect for our loyal supporters.  One of the amusing discussions  involved whether having a bunch of cops in the bar would hurt that business.  Understand part of our appeal is being isolated in a scenic rugged canyon with over a mile of one road in, same road out.  Very easy to sit at the top of the rim and check for DUI’s or control access.  I argued that privacy and being somewhat out of the public eye was just as appealing to cops as it was to our regulars and that it would probably improve bar business.  Other staffers felt it would drive off golfers, who would find their 19th hole elsewhere.  Perhaps we’ll never know who was right.  (Didn’t change much as we always had an active policy for providing secure parking and encouraging designated drivers and cheap cabs.)

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #272 on: December 19, 2016, 11:35:13 AM »
Municipalities have heath departments that provide the needed vaccinations , shots etc and the emergency room id where the uninsured would go.  My wife has managed the emergency room in our town for over 15 years and taking care of the uninsured was performed better before we were supposedly all insured.  With due respect it doesn't matter where your golf began or where it is today.  Give me one reason why the government should provide golf.  Should they also provide bowling?

Mike--It took me all of 30 seconds to google "municipal rec center bowling" and discover multiple instances of municipalities with bowling facilities. Gatlinburg, TN, has one. Sevierville, TN, has one. Tennesseans love their bowling!

http://gatlinburgtn.gov/index.php/recreation/community-center/
http://seviervilletn.org/index.php/facilities/bowling-center.html

"I have seen some [privately-owned public courses] where they began to take rounds from the muni and the muni then turns around and spend four million on improvements without having to generate revenues to cover such bond.  Next thing you know the privately run public course is gone.  That's BS."
Re: your above quote, I'd be interested to hear specific examples of this. Archie's prior example of McCullough's/Twisted Dune seems close, but Twisted Dune is still in existence (is it still pretty successful?). Can you list some courses that have completely closed as a direct result of this problem, as distinct from the economic factors that have caused courses to close in recent years?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #273 on: December 19, 2016, 12:11:25 PM »
The existence of public health services hasn't stopped the healthcare industry in the private and non-profit sectors. Public transportation hasn't stopped industry evolution in transporation, whether through Detroit's Big 3, Uber/Lyft, or Tesla. UPS, FedEx, and Amazon have all been successful in revolutionizing the shipping industry to varying degrees and remaining profitable, somehow avoiding cannibalization from a tax-dollar subsidized competitor that famously operates a few billion in the red annually.


While this municipal course diversion has been fun to talk through, the reality of why courses are closing is a much simpler issue with a much more complicated solution: As SBusch's post reminds us, the real problem is that people just aren't as interested in golf as they used to be. Worry about whether a daily fee course can charge enough money to survive may lead to the "simple" solution that municipal golf should be abolished, and it might even work for a decade or two as those who already have the bug are forced to either give it up or spend more to satisfy it. But those cheap municipal courses introduce a whole lot of people to the game, and I wouldn't be in a big hurry to eliminate one of the few influences in the golf industry that still attracts new players.


Of course, people used to say the same thing about caddie programs, and I have no doubt that municipal golf will eventually follow the same road that caddie programs have followed (and continue to follow). I suspect that municipal golf will come under fire in the next few decades and that we'll see more and more golf courses turned into public green spaces or plowed for development, depending on who holds the most local influence. The one thing I'm sure about - there won't be enough golfers left for our influence to win out.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses are closing because...
« Reply #274 on: December 19, 2016, 12:42:34 PM »
 ;D :D


Jason, well stated. Good argument.


I might argue that the subsidized billion dollar loser (USPS) should be abolished. But its not the time or place. Obviously you are correct that exceptional operators are more nimble and innovative, providing better service and product for similar prices. But the president or your congressman probably wouldn't pressure you to make sure that you used the post office.


As stated I'm all for simple entry level recreational programs of all types and as needed, even for golf. I'm sure  being a caddy at two private clubs in my youth helped frame my opinion that it was a luxury to be a member , not a right as a citizen. Still see it that way.


Having lived thru a horrible experience with local government , and knowing what they can do to you galvanized my libertarian principles vis a vis government over reach!




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