[JJShanley]

I remember the promise that "technology would make everything less expensive."  The newest MacBook pro is a simple enough example of this.  Although the newest laptop is more powerful and of course thinner than prior generations, the price increases of the MacBook have far exceeded inflation.


I don't have any data but my guess would be that golf course maintenance budgets have far exceeded inflation through the years.  I don't know of any new technology that has made maintenance less expensive.  Every new innovation seems to increase the level of maintenance at a larger cost, which doesn't seem to be helping.


Perhaps golf course closures could be mostly pinned down to our broken mindset of being obsessed with innovation and progress.

Indeed.  I suppose we should read that quotation as "the current generation of technology will decrease in cost, for a variety of reasons, as new technology replaces it."


I'm not nearly cool enough for Mac products.  I know my place.

[Adrian_Stiff]

THERE IS SO MUCH FOCUS ON GREEN FEES THAT PEOPLE FORGET THAT GOLF BUSINESS IS A DUES BASED BUSINESS.  It doesn't matter if it is a public course or a private the object is to get members or annual pass holders or even monthly fees.  A course with only green fees cannot compete with a course of members or pass holders.  Try aerifying with only green fee members or try a month of rain....it doesn't work...

Mike in a good UK location that can be wrong. Roughly 50% of our golf income is membership and 50% is Visitor income, yet the volume of play is 80% Members versus 20% Visitor. Our big visitor income keeps it cheap for the members. Four fourballs going out virtually equals one full membership. I like the soul of a golf club but if money driven then green fees only is much better if you can get the traffic.
You are quite right about maintenance and bad weather. Members play visitors stay away. That aside members do factor in bad weather far more than they did in yesteryear when they do their "did I get value sums".

Adrian,

   The 2 go hand in hand.  Without member dues, it's tough to make it.  The unaccompanied player should pay more, due to the fact you have members.  Mike is talking about guaranteed income from season passes and members.  It's why our UofM course loses money (no members) and the other course makes money (95% members).  The committed golfer (the member) should receive a better deal then the golfer who plays 1-5 times a year.  So take away your members and tell me at what level you are going to maintain the course?

Ben - There are plenty of non membership courses in the UK, many were membership clubs and they got rid of the members because it is more profitable and you don't have to work as hard (number of rounds wise to hit the numbers) I reckon we do 50,000 rounds over our 36 holes, 40,000 are members and 10,000 are visitors. I only have to do 20,000 rounds as visitors to hit the same total income as I am currently on so I could maintain the same quality as now, without members. Members occupy Sat Mornings up to 11.00 and I could fill them easy peasy with visitors and big groups. In Bristol it is still hard to get a tee time Saturday morning on a decent course, that is probably true of most UK cities....other days are not easy to fill though and there is no doubt if it rains you can get close to zero. It is not a route I want to take though as it is not all about the money and whilst some members are a pain in he arse they are needed to create the right atmosphere.

[Dave McCollum]

THERE IS SO MUCH FOCUS ON GREEN FEES THAT PEOPLE FORGET THAT GOLF BUSINESS IS A DUES BASED BUSINESS.  It doesn't matter if it is a public course or a private the object is to get members or annual pass holders or even monthly fees.  A course with only green fees cannot compete with a course of members or pass holders.  Try aerifying with only green fee members or try a month of rain....it doesn't work...

Along Mike's response, I'd be very curious to know what the breakdown is of public courses in my area here in the Delaware Valley:  what percentage of income is from yearly subscribers vs those pay as you go.  I really have idea what breakdown would be!

Maybe a few public course operators on this site can share their percentages?

I could share our percentages, but each course/market is different.

[Mike_Young]

Forget about percentages for a moment and just ask yourself what it cost a public course (not a muni) to aerify when it has no members and ask what it cost a private with 400 members. 
The public course has two days with no revenue and then probably two weeks at reduced green fees and reduced play since players will most likely go to other places that were not aerified.  And then it will cost him equipment, sand and labor.
The course with members will lose a few cart fees and have the same equipment, labor and sand cost. 

If a public course does that three times a year it might cost him $75,000 to $100,000 in lost revenue....

The average guy going to GolfNow and shopping for cheap doesn't realize he is as much a part of the problem as anything else. 

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


I'm genuinely confused.  Are golf courses compelled/mandated to offer tee times on GolfNow?  If they don't like the fee structure of the site then don't use it. 


I've never used it myself and I'm curious what the problem is.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


I'm genuinely confused.  Are golf courses compelled/mandated to offer tee times on GolfNow?  If they don't like the fee structure of the site then don't use it. 


I've never used it myself and I'm curious what the problem is.

No one is required to use it and I don't and many others don't. 

The problem is their business model is based on selling the trade times and it drops the price of golf...that's it in a nutshell.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


I'm genuinely confused.  Are golf courses compelled/mandated to offer tee times on GolfNow?  If they don't like the fee structure of the site then don't use it. 


I've never used it myself and I'm curious what the problem is.

No one is required to use it and I don't and many others don't. 

The problem is their business model is based on selling the trade times and it drops the price of golf...that's it in a nutshell.

Mike isn't a competitive business model and lower prices for everyone the defacto m/o for the American free-market, capitalistic system?


P.S.  I really don't think golfNow is the real problem here.  Its the fact that new golfers, (the vast majority who probably start before the age of 30), just plain can't afford it anymore.  If anything Golfnow is just helping to delay the inevitable of massive course closures....

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


I'm genuinely confused.  Are golf courses compelled/mandated to offer tee times on GolfNow?  If they don't like the fee structure of the site then don't use it. 


I've never used it myself and I'm curious what the problem is.

No one is required to use it and I don't and many others don't. 

The problem is their business model is based on selling the trade times and it drops the price of golf...that's it in a nutshell.

Mike isn't a competitive business model and lower prices for everyone the defacto m/o for the American free-market, capitalistic system?


P.S.  I really don't think golfNow is the real problem here.  Its the fact that new golfers, (the vast majority who probably start before the age of 30), just plain can't afford it anymore.  If anything Golfnow is just helping to delay the inevitable of massive course closures....

IMHO most golf is propped up and subsidized.  Ad therefore the capitalistic system has not really worked in golf for a long time...and when the munis enter the scene it becomes even worse...  Where as a restaurant has to buy a hamburger to sell a hamburger , a golf course doesn't have to buy more product once it reaches it breakeven cost point.  It doesn't cost anymore to play 100 hundred rounds in a day than it does 10.  Many factors including GolfNow have reduced the base fee to where it just doesn't work...

[Jon Wiggett]

UK private members clubs used to attract members for two main reasons. First the social side and secondly because it was much cheaper than paying the greenfees. In the last 20 years many privates clubs have turned their members into clients and through the idiotic greenfee dumping they have made the membership the more expensive model. The Stockport example would mean you would need to play 60 times a year to break even and 90% of members do not do this. So the club is basically saying to 90% of its most loyal clients you are better off not being a member. Pretty stupid IMO.


Jon

[BCowan]

THERE IS SO MUCH FOCUS ON GREEN FEES THAT PEOPLE FORGET THAT GOLF BUSINESS IS A DUES BASED BUSINESS.  It doesn't matter if it is a public course or a private the object is to get members or annual pass holders or even monthly fees.  A course with only green fees cannot compete with a course of members or pass holders.  Try aerifying with only green fee members or try a month of rain....it doesn't work...

Mike in a good UK location that can be wrong. Roughly 50% of our golf income is membership and 50% is Visitor income, yet the volume of play is 80% Members versus 20% Visitor. Our big visitor income keeps it cheap for the members. Four fourballs going out virtually equals one full membership. I like the soul of a golf club but if money driven then green fees only is much better if you can get the traffic.
You are quite right about maintenance and bad weather. Members play visitors stay away. That aside members do factor in bad weather far more than they did in yesteryear when they do their "did I get value sums".

Adrian,

   The 2 go hand in hand.  Without member dues, it's tough to make it.  The unaccompanied player should pay more, due to the fact you have members.  Mike is talking about guaranteed income from season passes and members.  It's why our UofM course loses money (no members) and the other course makes money (95% members).  The committed golfer (the member) should receive a better deal then the golfer who plays 1-5 times a year.  So take away your members and tell me at what level you are going to maintain the course?

Ben - There are plenty of non membership courses in the UK, many were membership clubs and they got rid of the members because it is more profitable and you don't have to work as hard (number of rounds wise to hit the numbers) I reckon we do 50,000 rounds over our 36 holes, 40,000 are members and 10,000 are visitors. I only have to do 20,000 rounds as visitors to hit the same total income as I am currently on so I could maintain the same quality as now, without members. Members occupy Sat Mornings up to 11.00 and I could fill them easy peasy with visitors and big groups. In Bristol it is still hard to get a tee time Saturday morning on a decent course, that is probably true of most UK cities....other days are not easy to fill though and there is no doubt if it rains you can get close to zero. It is not a route I want to take though as it is not all about the money and whilst some members are a pain in he arse they are needed to create the right atmosphere.

Adrian,

     If you didn't have members it would be harder to get more money from the uncommitted golfer.  Having members (committed golfer) getting a better deal because he commits to your course is great.  Now having an off year are you sure you could get 20,000 rounds?  There is a balance.  Mid Pines/Pine Needles in North Carolina used to be just resort only.  20 years ago I paid $75 to play in peak season.  Now i know there is inflation, but they charge $225-240 peak season a round.  IMO they are able to charge higher because they have members, which also enabled them to do a renovation without as much worry.   Same for Pinehurst resort, though hosting a major greatly increases that, which it was high prior to 1999 when first US open was announced.  What I am saying is you need both to be successful.  Sat morning is a big desired time.  Some Michigan public courses sell weekday passes for that reason.  They are trying to get senior to commit for the week verse playing a different course Monday-Friday.  Belvedere in Northern Michigan summer get away spot, the members have the tee from 10am-Noon.  Member play should run smoother too. 

    You either have too many members, aren't charging enough for season pass/membership, or your model is perfect and you don't realize it.   

     People keep talking about maintenance cost and labor is a big part of that.  The Higher cost of living the course is located the higher the maint budget.  Maint is the most important factor in determining a courses success I would bet next to location.  The funny thing is top tier private who spend lots on maint, the maint accounts for 1/4 of the total budget, while the elephant in the room the clubhouse which loses money at 95% of private clubs gets over looked. 

[Bill_Yates]

Let me offer a thought. Certainly there are countless reasons why individual courses are struggling, so I'm not trying to suggest that I know the "real cause" or perhaps not even "the most important cause." I've been around too long to know otherwise.

However, by spending the past twenty years working with all manner of courses both in the U.S. and around the world, one thing I do know for sure, and that is, every course, public or private, produces a product - the playing experience - and if that product is not "affordable," the potential customer won't likely buy it. Courses have to learn how to consistently deliver high quality, high value, affordable playing experiences to every player all day long.

Since affordability is a key element, I'm attaching a link to an article I wrote that can help us better understand what potential customers (members, or pay as you go players) consider when choosing a course to play or even whether to play at all.

By delivering a better, more affordable product, all courses can improve their bottom line, and perhaps many might even be saved.

http://www.pacemanager.com/uploaded_files/fck/files/Increase-revenue-2.pdf

[Mark Pritchett]

The average guy going to GolfNow and shopping for cheap doesn't realize he is as much a part of the problem as anything else.

The audacity of people wanting to save money. 

[Sean_A]

The average guy going to GolfNow and shopping for cheap doesn't realize he is as much a part of the problem as anything else.

The audacity of people wanting to save money.

Exactly.  Like its my fault or problem that a course owner is a dumbass.  Why would I compound the stupidity and pay more than the cheaper rate?  We all know that the sale rate of any product is the real value of that product. 


Ciao

[Mike_Young]

The average guy going to GolfNow and shopping for cheap doesn't realize he is as much a part of the problem as anything else.

The audacity of people wanting to save money.

Exactly.  Like its my fault or problem that a course owner is a dumbass.  Why would I compound the stupidity and pay more than the cheaper rate?  We all know that the sale rate of any product is the real value of that product. 


Ciao

Do what you wish but the public golf scene has helped make golf a commodity and they so often show no loyalty to their locla public course....just looking for a deal.  They are contestants in the race to the bottom...

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


I know its not popular on this board and I certainly don't like it either...but every indicator points to the golf market in the US being extremely over-built in general on the macro-level, even if some small markets are fine. And given recent trends from the last 15 or so years, things are likely to only get worse.


So the only question at this point IMO, is how large will the contraction be?  To me, I wouldn't be surprised if its in the thousands over the next 10-20 years.  In the meantime courses everywhere will continue to discount green fees until they just can't keep their doors open...

[Mike_Young]

Mike,


I know its not popular on this board and I certainly don't like it either...but every indicator points to the golf market in the US being extremely over-built in general on the macro-level, even if some small markets are fine. And given recent trends from the last 15 or so years, things are likely to only get worse.


So the only question at this point IMO, is how large will the contraction be?  To me, I wouldn't be surprised if its in the thousands over the next 10-20 years.  In the meantime courses everywhere will continue to discount green fees until they just can't keep their doors open...

I think you are right but not everyone will discount their fees....cheers

[Rich Goodale]

Duncan,


pretty much spot on.
Jon

According to my son's economics lessons this is an example of The Prisoners' Dilemma.

Co-operation between golf clubs would ultimately benefit them all, but short-term (and short-sighted) advantages are sought by most at the lower levels by cut-throat competition on price.

Bingo, Duncan (and your son).


Back in the day (c.1986) when I was a management consultant I stumbled onto an article in The Economist on the Prisoner's Dilemma and used the theory and research to resolve a "race to the bottom" by one of two very well financed competitors of that day.  The ansewr to the "dilemma" is, of course, that cooperation is better than continued combat and the only winner of such as strategy, if (and only if). you and your competitors are relatively equal in SWOT terms.  It worked for both of them.


Golf courses are significant capital investments and live or die on how many potential customers want to play there and at what rate.  Far too many of them are actually trying to "race to the top," by adding frills and facilities and staffs and new clubhouses that are of little interest to the average player. Why not offer cooperative opportunites for play in your area, to fill up all of your cooperators as best as possiblr?


As some have said above, the days of clubs as social centers is long gone, except at the VERY high end.  These days who knows who is a member and who is not?  As long as they don't fart too often why not let them be treated as if they are members of the club?


Rich

[Jeff Taylor]

"The average guy going to GolfNow and shopping for cheap doesn't realize he is as much a part of the problem as anything else."
It's been my fault all along. Let's just pay more and our problems are solved.

[Jon Wiggett]

I was talking to the treasurer at a local club last night and he told me his club had signed up to a greenfee selling website on a 3 year deal to sell greenfees. The deal meant that the website got the first 8 greenfees each day (not 2 x a 4ball but 8 greenfees) He said that though they had seen an increase in visitor numbers this year up 20% they had also seen their greenfee intake halve. On top of that he said they had not seen a single bit of revenue from the online booking deal as they had never had more than 8 players book on it in one day. He was very despondent as they are locked into the deal for the next two years. He also said they had lost members as some had cottoned on to the fact it was cheaper to pay GFs through the website than membership fees to the club.

Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

I was talking to the treasurer at a local club last night and he told me his club had signed up to a greenfee selling website on a 3 year deal to sell greenfees. The deal meant that the website got the first 8 greenfees each day (not 2 x a 4ball but 8 greenfees) He said that though they had seen an increase in visitor numbers this year up 20% they had also seen their greenfee intake halve. On top of that he said they had not seen a single bit of revenue from the online booking deal as they had never had more than 8 players book on it in one day. He was very despondent as they are locked into the deal for the next two years. He also said they had lost members as some had cottoned on to the fact it was cheaper to pay GFs through the website than membership fees to the club.

Jon

A downward spiral in green fees combined with a decline in a sense of "ownership" among club members leading to a collapse in loyalty is inevitably going to lead to the financial ruin of many golf clubs, particularly at the lower levels.


The other thing to remember is that many of these clubs sit on potentially very valuable plots of land, particularly those situated in the suburbs of major towns and cities.


As the number of members of a traditional club declines, the potential realisable value of each membership share rises in the event of a sale to developers. I predict the dawn of the carpet-bagger...


...and mass deregistration from CASC!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jon- That sums it up perfectly. We are lucky in the South West very few have signed up to Golf Now although many have BRS systems owned by Golf Now. Up north it is grim as Duncan will confirm.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Jon- That sums it up perfectly. We are lucky in the South West very few have signed up to Golf Now although many have BRS systems owned by Golf Now. Up north it is grim as Duncan will confirm.

I have battled hard to put the case for holding firm on green fees at Reddish Vale.  Statistics show that visitor income is split roughly equally three ways;


One third Societies
One third Members Guests
One third Casual Visitors


The green fee relates directly only to the last third, although I would argue that a high green fee makes the special deal that can be offered to societies look more attractive. There is nothing wrong with offering a society of 24 guys a deal of say £20 each for the golf on an otherwise quiet day; a green fee of £40 makes it feel great value and it brings in £480 plus bar take etc.


Unfortunately I am unable to convince my colleagues that we need to hold our nerve on casual green fees. The problem as I see it is that every club in the area is gearing their entire fee structure to the whims of a few dozen tight-arsed nomadic golfers who won't pay a realistic price for a round. My attitude is to fuck them off, but no-one will listen. Apparently we cannot afford to lose the income.


Meanwhile, the "good" visitors who would quite happily pay a realistic green fee of say £35 - £40  end up paying £20 like everyone else and remark about how ridiculously cheap it is.


Needless to say, my brief involvement in golf club politics is now at an end...

[Duncan Cheslett]

One very simple move that could be made that would benefit ALL clubs would be if everyone only offered discounted green fees to bona fide members of a recognised golf club as evidenced by a valid handicap certificate or Howdidido.

[Sean_A]

One very simple move that could be made that would benefit ALL clubs would be if everyone only offered discounted green fees to bona fide members of a recognised golf club as evidenced by a valid handicap certificate or Howdidido.

Thats called a county card.  I hope that one day YORKS, Wales and Scotland can somehow join the system.  It works very well in most of England. 


Mike Y...I am not in the least worried about course closure and do not feel in the least compelled to pay more than the going rate for a green fee.  The way I see it, many courses have survived beyond their sell by date.  What will be will be, but its laughable to expect customers to donate money to courses because the owners don't know how to charge the proper amount. 


Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

One very simple move that could be made that would benefit ALL clubs would be if everyone only offered discounted green fees to bona fide members of a recognised golf club as evidenced by a valid handicap certificate or Howdidido.

Thats called a county card.  I hope that one day YORKS, Wales and Scotland can somehow join the system.  It works very well in most of England. 


Mike Y...I am not in the least worried about course closure and do not feel in the least compelled to pay more than the going rate for a green fee.  The way I see it, many courses have survived beyond their sell by date.  What will be will be, but its laughable to expect customers to donate money to courses because the owners don't know how to charge the proper amount. 


Ciao

The problem that exists (mainly up North) is if a golf club prices itself improperly (perhaps via the golfnow model) it takes a lot of the traffic away from the one that priced itself properly. The properly priced club gets taken down financially. The majority of people want cheap golf full stop. The amount of people that want a higher quality of course and are prepared to pay for it is a lot less than the folk on this forum think. If a decent say "Stockport" club prices it's course at £20, it soaks up a lot of the tourist play.
No nice answer really but as anyone that has followed my 10 years of posts will remember me saying "if you create a situation where it is cheaper to not be a member then you are heading for death spiral".
Price integrity is paramount but it is hard to do if everyone around you has dropped their pants,

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