[Tom Fagerli]

There is little financial impediment to golf in my area. You can play and ride (most casual golfers ride Around here) for $20 on a course with some good holes, fine putting firm greens and some beautiful wide views. It is the over supply of courses that causes the low price. This same  course years ago had 30,000 rounds and lost $60,000. Hmmm. Now they probably have 15,000 rounds. I wonder how this works?
I sure wish I had the answer. On a brighter note I was at MidPines the other week when there was a junior tournament and the young men were clearly loving the game and the comraderie. Did my spirit good.

[Mike_Young]

The thing that hurts good public golf is muni golf in areas which have good privately owned public golf courses.  Oh and GolfNow doesn't help either...

[Richard Hetzel]

The thing that hurts good public golf is muni golf in areas which have good privately owned public golf courses.  Oh and GolfNow doesn't help either...

When I am in Florida I can usually pick from a ton of privates that I have never played on Golfnow, and I do use it to play new courses. I can't remember ever using it for any public courses because I know it hurts their bottom line. BUT, if I call those same private courses and ask nicely to play, I am told no 75-80% of the time, because I don't belong to a club. Really? They won't even undercut their own golfnow account when they should. I can afford to join a private club, but with 4 kids in myriad sports and activities and my penchant for playing "different" golf courses, it's a tough sell to my budget (wife). I understand the ultra-private clubs not allowing hard core golfers who appreciate GCA to play (at least in the USA anyway), but most privates (especially those in financial need) may in fact, gain some new members by allowing serious guys a round here and there for a price because they had a nice experience. These same places have no problem allowing scrambles on Mondays that destroy their courses from people who play golf 1-2x per year, if that. I think courses do a really poor job of marketing and selling, especially when they have so much competition around them. They just are not creative with their offerings and types of offerings and are still clinging to a flawed business model. A plethora of high end golf resorts appear to be going gangbusters right now and with no end in sight. They don't appear to be struggling at all to attract golfers. Even with astronomical prices they are busy as heck. What have they tapped into? A decent enough (kinda) Greg Norman designed course within a 20 minute drive from my house just sent a coupon in the mail for a single golf membership, unlimited golf for 1 year 7 days a week, including a golf cart for $1795.00. You could also elect to join, with unlimited golf including cart for $1195 but does not include weekend times (no Sat and Sun). For that I would only need to play approximately 35 rounds to break even, but I am not sure I even like the course enough to play there that much. That's a GREAT deal, and I am really tempted to take it. What is appealing to me is a national membership somewhere, that I can play every now and then, and use for access to other private clubs that I would like to play. Best of both worlds. As my kids get older I will more than likely join a club in SW Florida since I will be moving there in 6-7 years. I'll probably just wait.

[archie_struthers]

 


As mentioned in Richards post there are deals to be  had in most areas when it comes to golf . As an operator it makes no sense to be in a business where the price point continues to fall.


 While we offer a variety of membership options , a base price for a core membership under $2,000 a year including cart fees would be untenable without having 600 golf members. At that number the ability to run the tee sheet is completely hopeless. Moreover , the quality of the experience would be so diluted that you wouldn't keep the 600 very long.

Therein lies the problem and more closures will occur .


Our golf course is quite good , playable but difficult enough to challenge expert players . We have a superb location outside Ocean City , NJ , a great vacation town with many wealthy summer residents. Our members are awesome , and keep recruiting new blood for us as long as we make it fun and fairly priced.  However, without our location it would be very hard to maintain quality standards.




 It's hard to assemble land and build in NJ , which now seems more a blessing than a curse (can't believe I'm saying this ).  Despite this many of our competitors are struggling , and the area was overbuilt during the "boom" of the late 90's. The addition of  untaxed , unregulated government owned courses inventory hasn't helped the local operator , small business owner.  Also , you don't see many member groups coming forward that want to risk the financial capital and liability owning a course entails.


Suffice it to say some of the courses in our area are really feeling the pinch and their pricing reflects it . However they can't maintain good playing conditions and retain good employees for long with deep discounting. However, it
makes it difficult to keep pricing running even with inflation.


Not many products that require maintenance and management that cost less than it did twenty years ago . Kind of tells you what the inevitable outcome will be .

[BCowan]

As mentioned in Richards post there are deals to be  had in most areas when it comes to golf . As an operator it makes no sense to be in a business where the price point continues to fall.


 While we offer a variety of membership options , a base price for a core membership under $2,000 a year including cart fees would be untenable without having 600 golf members. At that number the ability to run the tee sheet is completely hopeless. Moreover , the quality of the experience would be so diluted that you wouldn't keep the 600 very long.

Therein lies the problem and more closures will occur .


Our golf course is quite good , playable but difficult enough to challenge expert players . We have a superb location outside Ocean City , NJ , a great vacation town with many wealthy summer residents. Our members are awesome , and keep recruiting new blood for us as long as we make it fun and fairly priced.  However, without our location it would be very hard to maintain quality standards.




 It's hard to assemble land and build in NJ , which now seems more a blessing than a curse (can't believe I'm saying this ).  Despite this many of our competitors are struggling , and the area was overbuilt during the "boom" of the late 90's. The addition of  untaxed , unregulated government owned courses inventory hasn't helped the local operator , small business owner.  Also , you don't see many member groups coming forward that want to risk the financial capital and liability owning a course entails.


Suffice it to say some of the courses in our area are really feeling the pinch and their pricing reflects it . However they can't maintain good playing conditions and retain good employees for long with deep discounting. However, it
makes it difficult to keep pricing running even with inflation.


Not many products that require maintenance and management that cost less than it did twenty years ago . Kind of tells you what the inevitable outcome will be .

 While we offer a variety of membership options , a base price for a core membership under $2,000 a year including cart fees would be untenable without having 600 golf members. At that number the ability to run the tee sheet is completely hopeless. Moreover , the quality of the experience would be so diluted that you wouldn't keep the 600 very long.

   That is not true about running tee sheet with 600 members is hopeless.  At my home club we have 700 or 750 individual members plus about 50 half members.  Each full member pays $1800 a year.  If spouse plays they pay additional $1800 a year.  All individual.   We do 30,000 rounds a year with only about 2 or Monday outings or events.  The quality of the experience is greater to me that many places I've played that do less then 10,000 rounds on purpose.  I love to see people using a facility that was meant to be used.  The problem with your narrow minded view is courses close.  The guy who's wife plays its a fair deal, the guy who's wife doesn't play doesn't want to be out there and many wives post Caddie shack don't like the private club vibe.  With individual model you attract better female members.  My club has 15 women with 17 handicap or better.  I for the record know the course Richard is talking about, played 2 US AM qualifiers there.  I also get the feeling that the said course wants to be public with members.  There are many private courses that would do well to obtain 600 individual members @ $2,400 a year.  I agree that we have inflation, but much of the private golf is waste that never used to have to be addressed. 

The addition of  untaxed , unregulated government owned courses inventory hasn't helped the local operator , small business owner.     Agree completely

Also , you don't see many member groups coming forward that want to risk the financial capital and liability owning a course entails.   Not true in my home town of Toledo, 3 people have bought courses and are improving them.  One private, one semi, and one public.  Muskegon CC in a bad area is doing great owned by former members.  South Bend CC is doing great owned by former member(s).  The difference is they run it like a business.  Different state of mind and it doesn't affect the Experience. 

[Carl Johnson]

"Coming out for making access to the game limited, or 'aspirational', as the President-elect puts it, runs counter to that spirit.   The irony is that the President-elect learned the game on the very same Philadelphia course that was started for the use of all people back in 1916; the same course where the first black PGA professional Charlie Sifford learned to play the game."

   
Off the main topic, but as a point of clarification, Sifford originally learned to play the game at Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte, now private but then a privately-owned daily fee course for white people.  He moved to Philadelphia where he undoubtedly continued to learn.  However, at the time of the move, at age 17, I believe, he was already quite an accomplished player.

From the web: "He learned to play golf while working as a caddie at a segregated country club in North Carolina."  Again, a correction.  The course was segregated but to call it a country club is misleading.  I was just a daily fee golf course.

As I recall, Sifford's 1992 autobiography, Just Let Me Play, explains why he "moved" to Philadelphia. 

[archie_struthers]

 






Ben , narrow minded?      So hurtful!




Remember all clubs business models need  to be specific  to each region . Includes tee time modeling.

[BCowan]

Archie,


   it was meant w love.  I've been to enough regions, jersey ain't much different then SE MI outside metro NYC which isn't a representation of the US.  It's time for clubs to bury ego and make much needed adjustments.  Destination golf is helping give options to folks they didn't have 30 years ago.  The problem is there isn't enough model options. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Archie,


How is the nearby Linwood CC doing in your area? www.linwoodcountryclub.com

[Duncan Cheslett]

I don't actually think that courses are closing in significant numbers...




...YET!!!




The problem in the UK is that the club model that has supported golf for a hundred years or more is largely broken - particularly at the bottom of the pyramid.


Thirty years ago the humblest club with the most modest course and facilities enjoyed a full membership roll, a waiting list, a joining fee, and relative financial security. These have all now disappeared for perhaps 80% of golf clubs.


Some of the reasons for this are golf related; some are simply symptoms of cultural change.  Here are a few random thoughts as they come into my head;


People used to join their local golf club to be a member of a social hub as much as anything else. Among the elite clubs in any particular area this is still the case, but the further down the pyramid you go the less important this aspect has become. People today tend to join golf clubs for one reason; to play golf.  This is evidenced by the large number of members at all clubs who rarely set foot in the clubhouse. Even in my short time as a member of a golf club I have noticed the change; a few years ago it was assumed that everyone would retire to the bar after a round for a convivial drink or two. It is now common - socially acceptable even - to make one's apologies and leave as soon as the game is over.


All golf clubs now offer unbelievably good terms to attract and retain young members - those under 30 or 35. Yet the average age of members at most clubs continues to rise. It is not difficult to see why. All the good, committed young players in any area will inevitably seek out the "best" course to play on. This often be the most elite club in that area yet membership fees will invariably be no more expensive for under 30s than at the other clubs in town. As a consequence, all the young blood is sucked from the ordinary clubs and concentrated at the top.


Among later converts to the game too, there is now far more choice when it comes to joining a club. Not many years ago most people joined the club that had vacancies - while maybe still retaining a place on the waiting list of their first choice of club. Now, one can more or less walk into wherever one wants to. Clubs that twenty years ago had a Dead Man's Shoes membership policy are now advertising for members on their websites! The higher echelon clubs once again suck the blood from the rest.


Once the allure of the "Club" side of golf club membership starts to wane, then traditional golf clubs are in trouble.  If all one wants to do is to play regular golf, one does not need to be a member of a club any more. I have to say that if I was starting out again, I'm not sure that I would join a traditional club. In my region I can play a couple of times per week on various amateur "tours" at high quality courses at bargain rates. One such tour is even registered with CONGU as a club and offers official handicaps! If a handicap is the main reason to be a member of a club, I can join countless places as a Pay and Play member and submit my three cards per year.


Some say that lost membership income can be replaced by green fees. Unfortunately this only compounds the problem as oversupply is driving down prices to ridiculous levels - particularly at base level clubs. I can play perfectly good but undistinguished courses at under £15 per round more or less whenever I want.  If I was only going to play 30 rounds a year why would I pay £1000 pa to be a member of a club?


I could go on and on...






 

[Sean_A]

Duncan


Your reasons boil down to money and I do think it will get worse in the UK.  Club membership has comfortably doubled since I moved to the UK and to be honest I still don't think most clubs have enough money to properly upkeep their courses.  Anyway, with a rise in fees combined with the next generation not having the spare cash of yesteryear and its a simple matter of maths.  Add in the ever increasing house and energy prices combined with less decent paying jobs and the next generation will have an even tougher time justifying money for golf.  Finally, for the next generation who do have money and/or good prospects (quite a small pool if you ask me)...is golf really on their radar?  And as you say, these kids are savvy enough to know that if they do get into golf that there are certain clubs to join.  Golf in the UK will shrink, but I think the worst but is not the loss of golf courses, but what will replace the courses.


Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,


pretty much spot on. To my mind golf's governing bodies have completely let down the club's they represent by offering no guidance to them. Left alone the changes to the market created by golf clubs has exacerbated certain problems but also created even bigger ones. It is the clubs that have and control the product but it seems to me that the sales men in the form of 'tee time selling websites' are controlling the market strategy.


The clubs need to put their heads together and come up with a collective game plan but then again that is what the unions and R&A are supposed to initiate.


Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yes, the last few posts are the UK perspective. I think selling the health benifits of weekly golf is the last chance to get more people playing. Golf will shrink, bad locations close. Some will stay open on a limited service basis with less than previous conditions.

[archie_struthers]

 


Linwood is a nice club located almost equally distant on Shore Road between GB and ACCC. It opened in 1920 , predating  Greate Bay by a few years . 


Though not mentioned in a nice history on the clubs website (good read) Linwood for years was considered an option for Jewish golfers eschewed from membership at either Atlantic City or Seaview, the iconic clubs in the area. Today it remains member owned and operated . This is a difficult sale with the transient population and options available in the area , but remains a vibrant club today. The emergence of Hidden Creek and Galloway as options for well heeled  locals has no doubt made membership sales more difficult for the club. Hard to see how this plays out over time .


Can't agree with Ben on his postulate that all regions are similar when it comes to business model. Ours is quite complicated and much different than that in nearby Philadelphia. This being said our location and existing pool of members makes our job easier than most !

[Thomas Dai]

Just to get some figures on the table - for the UK -
How many private members clubs have closed in the last say 5 years?
How many pay-n-play courses have closed in the last say 5 years?
Plus -
How many new privates have opened in the last say 5 years?
How many new pay-n-plays have opened in the last say 5 years?
Atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

My guess for the UK is 100 closed and 5 new ones.

[BCrosby]

Duncan nails it. Golf clubs once served as important social gathering spots. A non-trivial number of people joined clubs to 'hang out', whether on the golf course or in the clubhouse or both.


That seems to have changed. Using a club as a place to hang out is less important now. The social aspect of golf was one of the engines that drove the game's growth for a very long time. As that engine sputters, so will golf until it finds a new equilibrium.   


Bob   

[Adrian_Stiff]

Duncan nails it. Golf clubs once served as important social gathering spots. A non-trivial number of people joined clubs to 'hang out', whether on the golf course or in the clubhouse or both.


That seems to have changed. Using a club as a place to hang out is less important now. The social aspect of golf was one of the engines that drove the game's growth for a very long time. As that engine sputters, so will golf until it finds a new equilibrium.   


Bob

I think that happened more before the boom, though it still emphases the point that more people used to join and not play too much.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan,


pretty much spot on.


 It is the clubs that have and control the product but it seems to me that the sales men in the form of 'tee time selling websites' are controlling the market strategy.


The clubs need to put their heads together and come up with a collective game plan but then again that is what the unions and R&A are supposed to initiate.


Jon

According to my son's economics lessons this is an example of The Prisoners' Dilemma.

Co-operation between golf clubs would ultimately benefit them all, but short-term (and short-sighted) advantages are sought by most at the lower levels by cut-throat competition on price.


The contagion is spreading upwards.  The poshest club in our area, Stockport Golf Club, charges a rack-rate of £55.00 per round in winter ( £80.00 in summer). Stockport is currently advertised on TeeOffTimes at £25.00 per round.


http://www.teeofftimes.co.uk/stockport/?searchDate=2016-12-14


All casual and nomadic golfers routinely monitor TeeOffTimes. They now know that Stockport is a £25.00 course. Not only is this bad for Stockport; it devalues every other course in the area too.


Just as importantly, is pisses off members. People pay £1500.00 pa plus a hefty joining fee to hob nob with the local great and good at Stockport Golf Club. How long are they going to be happy with doing that when the great unwashed can rock up for £25.00 a round?


It's all very silly.

[Thomas Dai]

My guess for the UK is 100 closed and 5 new ones.

Thanks Adrian. Gives a perspective on things UK wise.
Atb

[Mike_Young]

THERE IS SO MUCH FOCUS ON GREEN FEES THAT PEOPLE FORGET THAT GOLF BUSINESS IS A DUES BASED BUSINESS.  It doesn't matter if it is a public course or a private the object is to get members or annual pass holders or even monthly fees.  A course with only green fees cannot compete with a course of members or pass holders.  Try aerifying with only green fee members or try a month of rain....it doesn't work...

[Adrian_Stiff]

THERE IS SO MUCH FOCUS ON GREEN FEES THAT PEOPLE FORGET THAT GOLF BUSINESS IS A DUES BASED BUSINESS.  It doesn't matter if it is a public course or a private the object is to get members or annual pass holders or even monthly fees.  A course with only green fees cannot compete with a course of members or pass holders.  Try aerifying with only green fee members or try a month of rain....it doesn't work...

Mike in a good UK location that can be wrong. Roughly 50% of our golf income is membership and 50% is Visitor income, yet the volume of play is 80% Members versus 20% Visitor. Our big visitor income keeps it cheap for the members. Four fourballs going out virtually equals one full membership. I like the soul of a golf club but if money driven then green fees only is much better if you can get the traffic.
You are quite right about maintenance and bad weather. Members play visitors stay away. That aside members do factor in bad weather far more than they did in yesteryear when they do their "did I get value sums".

[Joe Bausch]

THERE IS SO MUCH FOCUS ON GREEN FEES THAT PEOPLE FORGET THAT GOLF BUSINESS IS A DUES BASED BUSINESS.  It doesn't matter if it is a public course or a private the object is to get members or annual pass holders or even monthly fees.  A course with only green fees cannot compete with a course of members or pass holders.  Try aerifying with only green fee members or try a month of rain....it doesn't work...

Along Mike's response, I'd be very curious to know what the breakdown is of public courses in my area here in the Delaware Valley:  what percentage of income is from yearly subscribers vs those pay as you go.  I really have idea what breakdown would be!

Maybe a few public course operators on this site can share their percentages?

[BCowan]

THERE IS SO MUCH FOCUS ON GREEN FEES THAT PEOPLE FORGET THAT GOLF BUSINESS IS A DUES BASED BUSINESS.  It doesn't matter if it is a public course or a private the object is to get members or annual pass holders or even monthly fees.  A course with only green fees cannot compete with a course of members or pass holders.  Try aerifying with only green fee members or try a month of rain....it doesn't work...

Mike in a good UK location that can be wrong. Roughly 50% of our golf income is membership and 50% is Visitor income, yet the volume of play is 80% Members versus 20% Visitor. Our big visitor income keeps it cheap for the members. Four fourballs going out virtually equals one full membership. I like the soul of a golf club but if money driven then green fees only is much better if you can get the traffic.
You are quite right about maintenance and bad weather. Members play visitors stay away. That aside members do factor in bad weather far more than they did in yesteryear when they do their "did I get value sums".

Adrian,

   The 2 go hand in hand.  Without member dues, it's tough to make it.  The unaccompanied player should pay more, due to the fact you have members.  Mike is talking about guaranteed income from season passes and members.  It's why our UofM course loses money (no members) and the other course makes money (95% members).  The committed golfer (the member) should receive a better deal then the golfer who plays 1-5 times a year.  So take away your members and tell me at what level you are going to maintain the course?   

[Mike Bowen]

I remember the promise that "technology would make everything less expensive."  The newest MacBook pro is a simple enough example of this.  Although the newest laptop is more powerful and of course thinner than prior generations, the price increases of the MacBook have far exceeded inflation.


I don't have any data but my guess would be that golf course maintenance budgets have far exceeded inflation through the years.  I don't know of any new technology that has made maintenance less expensive.  Every new innovation seems to increase the level of maintenance at a larger cost, which doesn't seem to be helping.


Perhaps golf course closures could be mostly pinned down to our broken mindset of being obsessed with innovation and progress.

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