DMK Claims Media Seduced Him Into Excessive Design

[Robert Thompson]

So, to be clear, there's one quote from one person a couple of years after Bandon opened? Not sure that proves your point. If you read Dream Golf, you'll see Bandon was widely praised out of the gate. I think only in retrospect did some think the course was overrated, but that happens to many courses as they are reevaluated in the years after they open.

Tom. You may enjoy this quote from TEPaul: "Both Bandon and Pacific Dunes are really terrific courses but in my mind Pacific Dunes is head and shoulders better for various reasons and a lot of little reasons. I could go into what some of those reasons are but when one totals them all up and weighs why those things happened at Pac Dunes compared to Bandon next door, in my opinion, one would have to say because Doak and his really accomplished crew are better architects than Kidd and his crew. Better all the way from conceiving of and pulling off an unconventional routing to the variety of the holes set in what appears to be Nature's very own canvas. "
From this thread: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,318.msg7010.html#msg7010

[BCrosby]

So TEP's old post is the "storm of shit" PD had to fight through?


Bob

[Tom_Doak]

I think most of this board is either unaware or forgot the stealth storm of shit that DMK fought through after the opening of Bandon Dunes. Many saw it as the most amateurish design in modern history.

Not much of a shitstorm, and it wasn't exactly stealthy, either.


David cashed in immediately after Bandon Dunes with two great commissions -- working for Charles Schwab at Nanea in Hawaii, and for Fred Green at Queenwood in London.  But Pacific Dunes' opening took a bit of shine off his star, and I started getting some high-profile jobs that he might have otherwise gotten.  And I will give zero percent of the credit to Golf Club Atlas for that, since Julian Robertson has never heard of Golf Club Atlas.


More importantly, Nanea and Queenwood did not do the same to back up David's reputation after Bandon, than Cape Kidnappers and Barnbougle Dunes did for mine.  Partly that was because his two courses were super-exclusive and the magazines don't write about those, the way they do about beautiful resorts that everyone can play.  Partly, but not nearly all.

[Joe Hancock]

"...and then Alice...remember Alice? This is a song about Alice...."

Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

[John Kavanaugh]

So TEP's old post is the "storm of shit" PD had to fight through?


Bob

Bob,

Please quote me correctly. It was a stealth storm of shit. You don't even know you're in it then come out wondering what stinks. This idea that while building a questionable design you are being universally praised by the press is enough to alter anyone's future work for the worse.

[Sven Nilsen]

So TEP's old post is the "storm of shit" PD had to fight through?


Bob

Bob,

Please quote me correctly. It was a stealth storm of shit. You don't even know you're in it then come out wondering what stinks. This idea that while building a questionable design you are being universally praised by the press is enough to alter anyone's future work for the worse.

So stealth-like it continues to this day, right here, on this thread.

[BCrosby]

Let's see. DMK had to endure a stealth storm of shit that he didn't know was a storm of shit but actually was a storm of shit because he felt shit on?


Yup. Got it.


Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

"It's a Wonderful Life" was a complete failure when it first opened; the post WWII movie-going public stayed away from it in droves. Frank Capra was shattered, both professionally (it was the end of his Liberty Films) and personally (with a crisis of confidence and a weakening of will/direction). Doubting himself for the first time in his career, he started to make the kind of compromises that he'd never made before: filming scripts he wasn't completely happy with, having others choose the cast, taking notes/suggestions for edits from the studio heads. His next three (and not coincidentally, final three) films were utterly forgettable, and soon afterwards he retired and left Hollywood forever, though still only in his mid-50s. Years later, looking back, he wrote something like: "When you make movies the way you think best and stick to your guns no matter what, angels come down and sit on your shoulder and help you make something great. But after "It's a Wonderful Life" I didn't fight anymore for what I believed in, and didn't make my films the way I wanted to -- and so the angels left me, and they've never come back". 

Needless to say, "It's a Wonderful Life" is now recognized as the very good/excellent movie that it is, and that it was, and that it has always been. Sure, "the public" will have their say very soon after a golf course opens; all the more reason, it seems to me, for the architect involved to fight for it and believe in it even when no one else does, or at the very least not to publicly disavow it so quickly.

Peter

[Sven Nilsen]

Let's see. DMK had to endure a stealth storm of shit that he didn't know was a storm of shit but actually was a storm of shit because he felt shit on?


Yup. Got it.


Bob

Bob:


The only storm of shit regarding DMK's efforts at Bandon Dunes started the day a ranger told JK that he needed to hurry his fat ass along to stop holding up the course.  He's been on a one-man crusade against the place since then.


The TEPaul quote makes me think of the famous picture of Jayne Mansfield and Sophia Loren.  They're both beautiful women, just so happens one had a lower cut top that night.


Sven

[BCrosby]

Sven -


I happened across that picture just the other day. As Jayne leans over in front of her, Sophia's facial expression is priceless.


Peter -


Good stuff. I did not know that about Capra and IAWL. It was a shame he got the cinematic yips. He was one of the best in his heyday.


Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's see. DMK had to endure a stealth storm of shit that he didn't know was a storm of shit but actually was a storm of shit because he felt shit on?


Yup. Got it.


Bob

Bob:


The only storm of shit regarding DMK's efforts at Bandon Dunes started the day a ranger told JK that he needed to hurry his fat ass along to stop holding up the course.  He's been on a one-man crusade against the place since then.


The TEPaul quote makes me think of the famous picture of Jayne Mansfield and Sophia Loren.  They're both beautiful women, just so happens one had a lower cut top that night.


Sven

Really, next thing you'll be telling me is that patrons of Bandon aren't judged by which courses they prefer.

[Sven Nilsen]

John,


I really don't care if you like Sophia more than Jayne.


Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

I can't believe that it took this long to name my Motocaddy. Me and "Little Sven" just finished a wonderful 9 hole walk on a brisk Indiana afternoon. I hope he has a work visa, being in Indiana and all.

[Sven Nilsen]

Wow, quite the honor (I guess it beats an outhouse).  Are you still role-playing?


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48963.msg1106517.html#msg1106517

[John Kavanaugh]

Of course my wife and I roll play. Her robot is named "Big Sven".

[Sven Nilsen]

Of course my wife and I roll play. Her robot is named "Big Sven".

That one made me chuckle.


No wonder she doesn't care how long it takes you to play golf.

[Kalen Braley]

John,


What a load of crap.  Just because one person gets an A in calculus, and the other gets an A- doesn't mean the latter is a dumass'


They are both terrific courses, even if Pac Dunes is the better course....

[John Kavanaugh]

401K and a gross of double A's.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,


What a load of crap.  Just because one person gets an A in calculus, and the other gets an A- doesn't mean the latter is a dumass'


They are both terrific courses, even if Pac Dunes is the better course....

Kalen,

I took you for a guy with a fantastic memory for detail. Weren't you around here for the opening of Bandon? You don't recall the disaster of the original 16th? I know people were talking before Doak's private poo poo party.  It can't be just in my imagination.

[Philip Gawith]

I have played Cape Kidnappers, St Andrew's Beach, Barnbougle and Queenwood ( a number of times) and Tom is certainly right to hint that his relative success post Bandon and Pacific was not just down to David's courses being private. Queenwood is a decent course but hardly memorable. It has too many indifferent holes - for example, five par 5's, only one of which is a good hole. A driveable par four that does not really invite you to go for it etc It suffers from the fact that it has a set of greens that combine too much undulation and speed for the average golfer. The set-up is further aggravated by the fact that the club has 15+ tour pro's as members and I always have the feeling that the course is set up for them rather than normal members. 


David's latest UK effort, Beaverbrook, is a much better course, and true to the lessons he espouses. Better site, better fitted to the land, more width, better set of greens, better bunkering, more good holes - overall more enjoyable to play.


Philip

[Kalen Braley]

John,


What a load of crap.  Just because one person gets an A in calculus, and the other gets an A- doesn't mean the latter is a dumass'


They are both terrific courses, even if Pac Dunes is the better course....

Kalen,

I took you for a guy with a fantastic memory for detail. Weren't you around here for the opening of Bandon? You don't recall the disaster of the original 16th? I know people were talking before Doak's private poo poo party.  It can't be just in my imagination.

JK,


I wasn't actually, i didn't join until 2006. I did know the 16th had been reworked, but I don't know all the details of what was done.  Perhaps an old thread details this.


I have been to the resort a few times though and to suggest BD is dogmeat is a gross mis-characterization. Is it as good as PD?  No in my opinion, but its certainly a darn good course.

[Ian Andrew]

John,


I played the original 16th - it was fine.
It presented a difficult drive into a strong headwind because of where the landing area end up being.
There were other options available.

[John Cowden]

A bit OT, but following the conversation, I played no. 16 on Bandon multiple times in 1999.  In that year, on that course, my life changed.   And that hole was at least 1/18th part of the process.    Much of the original playing ground, lines of play and lines of sight,  have been altered over the years, not by moving earth but rather by gorse eradication and mow lines  through the fescue.   Bandon is a significantly different course than what I believe was intended, that is, how it played on the ground in 1999 and the next year or two, as well.

It remains a wonderful course today, but before the "resort" changes it was absolutely superb with all sorts of wonderful subtleties and challenges that no longer exist.  I'll forever place it above Pacific in my own pantheon, but much of that is due to the course it was, the course I recall, and the course that changed my world. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

......Something pretty bland could have been built there if they'd chosen the wrong architect. (Not by Robin I suspect).
It may be a little overboard GCA on steroids but bold beats bland most of the time.

Well, that is a statement that bears more discussion!


I suspect there was at least some pressure to build in the Spirit of St. Andrews, and also some desire to see different design.  Sometimes, the context of other courses in the area do set design parameters to a degree.


And, while this site has been devoted to minimalism, yes, on a dull (other than views) site, in this visual age, yes, you do feel the need to do "more."


I recall talking with Bill Coore, who said, in essence, that Sand Hills was the perfect fit to their style, musing that on lesser sites it wouldn't work as well.  I tend to agree, even if the general thought on this site is to minimize, minimize, minimize.


Or at the very least, how to draw the line between design more stuff and going overboard.....

Yes Jeff, I know very very few examples where flat, featureless farmers fields have been turned in to an excellent golf course without using some bold shaping.

That's not to say the subtle, middle ground isn't the desired outcome. Or isn't possible. It's just that most architects / shapers would try and fail.

So a big, bold course works better than a failed attempt at being minimal, the latter often resulting in bland.

Of course, interesting greens go a long way to helping the lesser approach work.

[Niall C]

"It's a Wonderful Life" was a complete failure when it first opened; the post WWII movie-going public stayed away from it in droves. Frank Capra was shattered, both professionally (it was the end of his Liberty Films) and personally (with a crisis of confidence and a weakening of will/direction). Doubting himself for the first time in his career, he started to make the kind of compromises that he'd never made before: filming scripts he wasn't completely happy with, having others choose the cast, taking notes/suggestions for edits from the studio heads. His next three (and not coincidentally, final three) films were utterly forgettable, and soon afterwards he retired and left Hollywood forever, though still only in his mid-50s. Years later, looking back, he wrote something like: "When you make movies the way you think best and stick to your guns no matter what, angels come down and sit on your shoulder and help you make something great. But after "It's a Wonderful Life" I didn't fight anymore for what I believed in, and didn't make my films the way I wanted to -- and so the angels left me, and they've never come back". 

Needless to say, "It's a Wonderful Life" is now recognized as the very good/excellent movie that it is, and that it was, and that it has always been. Sure, "the public" will have their say very soon after a golf course opens; all the more reason, it seems to me, for the architect involved to fight for it and believe in it even when no one else does, or at the very least not to publicly disavow it so quickly.

Peter

Peter

That's nicely written and an interesting story. One major difference though between the film and the golf course. No one buggered about with the film after it was released. It was allowed to be judged over time on what it was. That doesn't tend to happen with golf courses, even the ones we now think of as architectural masterpieces and shouldn't be touched. Who's to say what people would be saying about the Castle course in 40 years time if it had been left untouched.

Niall