[Steve_Roths]

Looking at a trip to Europe in 2017.  Wanted to get the Group's feedback on either Oitavos Dunes or Valdarrama as potential add ons to a trip to England and Wales.


Is there a preference for which would be more interesting to play? Has anyone played both on a single trip?  Trying to figure out how complicated it would be to travel to both from London.


Thanks.

[Adam Lawrence]

Both are tolerably easy to get to, Oitavos slightly easier as it's closer to Lisbon than Valderrama is to Malaga. But you'd be mad, imo, to try to do them both. There is a flight between Malaga and Lisbon so you could do it if you wanted to, but with all the golf there is in Andalusia and Portugal, why on earth would you just hit one course in each area?

[Steve_Roths]

Adam - Thanks for the response.  I need to do more research on each area.  I'll do that tonight.

[Niall C]

Adam


If you were basing yourself in either place to play a few different courses, which area and which courses would you pick ?


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Steve:


Unless you are trying to check off all the top 100 courses, why go so far out of your way to play one of these two?  I've seen lots of suggestions that one or both are highly overrated, and there are a lot of better, older courses on the Continent that you are skipping:  Morfontaine, Fontainebleau, The Hague, De Pan, Golf de Spa, El Saler, etc.  You just hear less about them because they spend less money advertising and less time chasing the panelist class.

[Greg Gilson]

Both have been covered amply in previous threads.


Overrated and, in the case of V., impressively expensive.


Play only if in the area and/or if putting pins in a board.

[Steve_Roths]

No pins on the board.


Just looking to expand my countries visited.  I played Morfontaine earlier this year and was on the fence about Spain/Portugal versus Royal Hague.


Any suggestions for courses near Hague?

Thx.

[Joey Chase]

Having played both on more than one occasion, I would say that both are overrated.  Having said that, part of the fun of being a golf dork like many of us, half the fun is the travel.  You could probably enjoy yourselves at either place. 
 
The whole Costa del Sol region is over developed and lacking any truly interesting golf.  The culture and cuisine is excellent but if you're going to Spain for food go to San Sebastien.  Why pay 330 euro, or whatever it is now, for a course you can play 100 times over in the states.  I had been told how amazing the conditioning of Valderrama was, the Augusta of Europe?  I played is several times while working in the area and every round had at least one ball plug in the green...  not my idea of great golf.  When I asked why, I was told that they needed to be kept soft because the greens were so small.  If that is true, what a sadly poor design.  I do love the Cork Oak trees on the course, although there are way too many of them!  There are several other courses in the RTJ style in the area at La Reserva, Finca Cortesin, and the recently renovated Sotogrande.  My favorite course in the country is definitely El Saler, I love that course although the conditioning could be improved.  There are several really interesting design features, including amazing green contours on several holes. 

I may be alone here in liking Oitavos Dunes, although I would love to see it play firm.  Given the choice between the Sotogrande area and Estoril/Cascais any day.  There are so many things to see and enjoy in the area beyond the golf.  Sintra is spectacular and worth a side trip.  On the same trip you could see other courses that might pique your interest as well.  Penha Longa is a RTJ Jr. course not far away that has a moderate amount of uniqueness.  If you don't mind a bit of a drive check out Troia.  It was designed by RTJ, with help from Cabell Robinson.  It is a fairly interesting design hard on the sea with some fun holes, although a bit tight.  Or you could head north and see Praia D'el Rei, a Cabell Robinson design with several holes on the sea.

Why not check out Paris or Amsterdam?  With Paris you could play Fountainbleau, St. Germaine, St. Cloud, Chantilly, and with a bit of help Morfontaine.  With Amsterdam, you could see Noordwijkse, Den Haag, De Pan, Kennemer, Eindhoven etc.  The positives are a lot less travel for much better golf.  A plus is the dining in Paris, the nightlife in Amsterdam, or the art museums in either location.

[Adam Lawrence]

Adam

If you were basing yourself in either place to play a few different courses, which area and which courses would you pick ?

Niall

I don't love the Costa del Sol, but Valderrama, Sotogrande Old and Las Brisas would be a pretty good three days golf, though rather expensive. I'd like to see Malaga, to see how much Simpson remains, and also Arana's Aloha and Rio Real. Of the new courses, imo Cabell Robinson's Finca Cortesin is the best, though unworkable.


As for Lisbon, Troia is the most interesting course aside from Oitavos. Estoril is worth seeing too. But Lisbon is a great city; I think it'd be a cool place to plan a city break with just one or maybe two rounds of golf.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I reckon San Roque new might be the best of a not great bunch for the GCA heads. Valderama is good condition. The 4th is a great hole but I can't think of another, but holes like 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14 are very middle of the road. 18 might actually be a bad hole as it is too narrow. 17 is a bit iffy too. Vile weather down here atm but the food is great, beer is great, bars are great, sun normally shines, golf in shorts and it makes up for the crap architecture and has made me understand something that some of you are not going to like. The architecture is not as important as good weather.


Adam - I think you would be dissappointed in Malaga.

[Greg Gilson]

"beer is great, bars are great, sun normally shines, golf in shorts and it makes up for the crap architecture and has made me understand something that some of you are not going to like. The architecture is not as important as good weather."

Adrian, this could be me talking about our new winter-life on Australia's Gold Coast. It aint the Sand Belt but it sure is nice when the sun shines!

[Charles Lund]

I did a five week car trip of Spain and Portugal five years ago that included two stays on the Costa del Sol for about 14 days, a week in Tge Algarve, and a week in Sintra outside of Lisbon.

I played about 20 different courses with multiple rounds on two of them.

Oitavos Dunes was a bit of a letdown.  I liked Troia and Penha Longo much better.  it probably was higher expectations that contributed to a letdown. 

Six rounds down on The Algarve contributed to a longing for a trip back to the Central Coast of California.

My favorite course on the Costa del Sol was La Reserva.  I played Valderrama and was in awe of the beauty.  Finca Cortesin was grand in scale.  I wrote comments several months ago on another thread.

Glad I went there.  Enjoyed the culture.   I would not travel there fot two rounds of golf.  in fact, I returned to Spain about 18 months later, to Barcelona.  Also traveled to Cordoba, Sevilla, and Ronda on a rail pass. No golf, other things to do.

Charles Lund

[Mark Pearce]

Just looking to expand my countries visited.  I played Morfontaine earlier this year and was on the fence about Spain/Portugal versus Royal Hague.

Royal Hague is in a different and much better league.  Lots of other good choices nearby, too.  Utrechrse de Pan is a wonderful heathland course that would be very highly regarded if it was in Surrey, Kennemer a high quality links.  I'd be very interested to revisit Frank Pont's Swinkelsche (sp?) now it has had three more years to mature since we visited for BUDA..

[Adam Lawrence]

Just looking to expand my countries visited.  I played Morfontaine earlier this year and was on the fence about Spain/Portugal versus Royal Hague.

Royal Hague is in a different and much better league.  Lots of other good choices nearby, too.  Utrechrse de Pan is a wonderful heathland course that would be very highly regarded if it was in Surrey, Kennemer a high quality links.  I'd be very interested to revisit Frank Pont's Swinkelsche (sp?) now it has had three more years to mature since we visited for BUDA..

Yes, I think the best short break trip in Europe is a few days on the Dutch links with an excursion to De Pan. Only real rival would be Paris, but Morfontaine and Fontainebleau are a long way apart, and obviously there's the issue of getting on Morfy.


Better weather in Spain at this time of year though (says the man who is taking his wife for a weekend in Barcelona in a couple of weeks )

[Adam_Messix]

The one thing that I found unique about Valderrama is that the scaling is so much smaller than any other Trent Jones course that I've played.  It's everything from tees, bunkers, greens (and even fairways).  It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is unique to RTJ Sr.'s portfolio. 


A couple of things of note:   I found the food and wine in Portugal to be shockingly good.


If you are going to that neck of the woods and want to see something unique, that means visiting a Javier Arana design and the best is El Saler.  Conditions run the gamut there, but the design is unique and fabulous for an American.

[Sean_A]

El Saler is nowhere near Valderrama or Oitavos...though Valencia is a vastly under-rated city.  Its worth going there for a short city break. 


I am not saying Praia del Rey is awesome, but it is a good course with a good hotel on site with its own beach...less than 1.5 hours from Lisbon airport.  If that doesn't appeal, Obidos is an outstanding town to stay. 


For me, the general Lisbon area would comfortably be the place I would choose between that and the Malaga area. 


Ciao 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I did a trip to Costa Del Sol and drove to The Algarve. There is plenty of golf from which to choose and some great hotels in which to stay. Just do your homework and see what courses you might like, but a week there is fun. WE stayed in Marbella in Spain and watched the sun rise and set on the Med.

[Adam_Messix]

El Saler is nowhere near Valderrama or Oitavos...though Valencia is a vastly under-rated city.  Its worth going there for a short city break. 

We drove from PGA Catalunya to Valencia and it is a LONG drive (about 4 1/2 hours if memory serves)  Unless you are flying into Valencia, El Saler is going to require a long car ride.  El Saler to Valderrama is longer even though the AP 7 and A7 are good roads.  It also makes you realize just how rugged coastal Spain is.  Also...  the tolls are pretty steep, like $40 to drive Barcelona to Valencia.

As an aside, we played Sotogrande and Valderrama and were able to make the Malaga to Lisbon flight without too much trouble. 

[Terry Lavin]

Marbella is heaven IMHO.  I haven't played Valderrama but I watched the Ryder Cup there and was impressed by the course and the topography and utterly fascinated by the cork trees.  But as a resort destination, Marbella is in my Top Ten, regardless of the golf.

[David Davis]

I think Marbella is more of a week get away where you enjoy the sun and golf. Especially if you are coming from the US. Valderrama is an excellent parkland course. Definitely worth playing if you are going to Spain.


Oitavos Dunes is also decent though most certainly overrated. It's a resort course and there are others there in the area worth seeing but only if you are there.


The Netherlands is where I live. Royal Hague is an Alison gem, an excellent and unique links course. It's right up the road from Noordwijkse, another links course and Kennemer Golf Club which has 3 9's but B and C are the best and from Harry Colt.


An hour and 15 minutes away is De Pan also from Harry Colt which is an awesome course and getting better every year. It's world top 100 in my book as is Royal Hague.


NL is a perfect logistic fit to a trip to England, especially if you fly Delta/KLM through Amsterdam. Schiphol is a major hub and links perfectly to any city in Scotland or England.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Definitely play one of the other courses in portugal... Is 9 bridges in Korea also on your list by any chance?!

[Thomas Dai]

Echo Adrian's comment on San Roque New.
Wherever you go best expect pace of play to be on the slow side. Also likely that there'll be quite a number of  novices/begineers/occasional players around.
Atb

[Philip Gawith]

I would echo the view of all the courses here discussed that the highest quality is Hague/Noordewijk/Kennemer/De Pan. A great group of courses.


That said, I would not be quite so sniffy about the original options - Valderrama and Oitavos. The former may be overrated and over-priced, but it still presents quite a unique experience (for me at least) of fantastically conditioned fairways that run like greens and cork trees which presents quite a distinctive challenge. I think Oitavos is a great course - a sort of mix of heathland and links with some great holes round about the turn. Maybe I was unlucky to play Penha Longa when it was sodden, but not a touch on Oitavos in my view. Agree with others that Lisbon/Sintra etc offer a lot - and also liked Praia del Rey, albeit quite built up these days.


Philip

[James Brown]

Oitavos is a gorgeous place.  5-6 very good holes.  5-6 bland holes.  Amazing long views of the ocean and coastline. I could play there and not get bored.  Weather is awesome. Surrounds are awesome. 


 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Given there is excellent but not great golf in both places (Costa del Sol and Lisbon), for a US traveller, this comes down to a city break vs a beach break.

For me, Marbella is not my cup of tea. Far too English, far too crass in places.

On the other hand, Lisbon still has a colonial feeling harking back 600 years to when it ruled the seas. It is grand, cultural and historical. You don't have a Lisbon in the US. You do have a Marbella.

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