[Adam Lawrence]

Woking's 1st is nothing special.

I like Woking's first just because of the severity of the fallaway green. In all the times I have been to Woking I still haven't figured out the best way to play the hole, though oddly my best results have come from missing left, from where the chip is quite easy. But you're in and among the trees, and you can easily lose your ball or get a terrible lie, so it's not a play a sensible golfer would choose.

[Thomas Dai]

"I don't think Dornoch's 15th is remotely special."
Sean -
I do think #15 is a pretty good hole. The mound blocking your view of the green from the tee makes the tee shot interesting, especially for someone playing the course for the first few times. Trying to hit & hold that green with your 2nd shot, let alone get the ball anywhere near the hole is a real challenge, even from 60 or 80 yards away. 
DT

David,
I was amused to see Sean point this out too as though Dornoch has several glaring flaws for such a vaunted course IMHO this is not one of them. Though I do not mind TOC 9th either so maybe I set my bar lower than Sean's.
Jon

Dornoch's 15th is a bit of a nothing hole despite the mound...unless one is a short hitter.  I am not overly keen on the concept of a short 4 hole where flat bellies can usually easily hit over the trouble yet shorter hitters have to take it on the chin.  Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to double reward long hitting...especially when the hitting doesn't have to be terribly accurate. I think this hole would have been much better in the good ole days...its one where equipment has ruined its value.
Ciao

Not sure where my bar is set as I go along with Seans comments about RD's 15th and am comfortable with the 9th at TOC!


What about shorter length par-4's where just about everyone lays-up? Holes like the 16th at Aberdovey. Good hole? Bad hole? Great hole? Horrid hole?


As an aside, wind direction makes a big difference on shorter par-4's, the more so if there's a carry involved. Guess it does everywhere though!


Atb

[archie_struthers]

 




The 11th at CC of Charleston

[BCrosby]

Woking's 1st is nothing special.

I like Woking's first just because of the severity of the fallaway green. In all the times I have been to Woking I still haven't figured out the best way to play the hole, though oddly my best results have come from missing left, from where the chip is quite easy. But you're in and among the trees, and you can easily lose your ball or get a terrible lie, so it's not a play a sensible golfer would choose.

Agreed about Woking No. 1. A deceptively difficult hole.

[Bill_McBride]

There are a bunch at the Old Course that fit the bill.


Seriously, this isn't that difficult. If you were to ask us to name a sub-330 yard hole that people think is awesome, that really stinks, now that would be a thread.

Please list that "bunch."  And why.    I can only think of #9 as sort of meeting that definition, and even that hole can leave you muttering under your breath as you head to the 10th tee. 

[JLahrman]

Jason, 6th at Bel-wood Country Club, right in your neck of the woods.

Go play it if you haven't. It's unforgettable. Trust me on that.

[Josh Tarble]

#7 at Wolf Run.

[Mike_Clayton]

Metropolitan's 320y 16th doesn't stink by any measure - but I've played it for 45 years and never once considered hitting anything but driver off the tee.
Go down the road to Kingston Heath 3 or Victoria 15 and I question the tee shot club every time.

[Carl Nichols]

#1 at Ocean Forest.   

[Eric LeFante]

Many people thought the original 17th at Trump Bedminster Old was a lousy short par 4. Two years ago Trump blew the hole up and replaced it with a 460 yard par 4.

I thought it had potential to be a really exciting drivable par 4. The problem with the original hole was that you couldn’t try to drive the green. The opening to the green was very narrow, there was water right, bunkers left, and the green was small and sloped hard towards the water.

In my opinion, a drivable par 4 is only great is there is close to an even split between those who take an aggressive route and those that lay-up. If everyone goes for the green, there is not enough risk; if everyone lays up, there is too much risk. 

I think this hole could have been great if the opening to the green was expanded and perhaps the slope of the green softened a little bit. It would have been great theater to see what the leader did on that tee after his playing partner, who is one shot behind, just hit the green from the tee. Could have made for an exciting 71st hole of the U.S. Women’s Open or PGA Championship.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it's the 14th at the "Ocean Course" at Half Moon Bay, CA and it borders a field of broccoli (to the south)and the smell can be rather...ah...musty sometimes....;-)

[Joe Hellrung]

For my taste, the 3rd hole at Dormie would fit that description the way it's currently maintained.  The green is too extreme for the speed they keep it, IMO.

Agreed.

[John Ezekowitz]

As an aside, should par-4's that are drivable have greens that are visible from the tee?

Please don't make up any more arbitrary rules for golf design.  There are already way too many!


As for bad short par-4's, the worst kind are those which insist on a long solid tee shot to have any hope of holding the green with the approach.  The great benefit of these holes is that they give the higher handicap player a chance at par or even birdie ... unless you build a green they can't hold with their best low-trajectory shot.

This is the 4th at TPC Boston. 280 yards, but to a built-up diagonal green that is ~10-15 paces deep at any one point. A rare Gil Hanse redesign misfire.

[Josh Bills]

As much as I enjoyed Lundin, hole 7 was a head scratcher.  Blind tee shot with an iron, OOB on the right seemingly still in the course and a green surrounded by severe slopes.  I really enjoyed the course, but not this hole. 


http://www.lundingolfclub.co.uk/holes/burn/

[Sean_A]

As much as I enjoyed Lundin, hole 7 was a head scratcher.  Blind tee shot with an iron, OOB on the right seemingly still in the course and a green surrounded by severe slopes.  I really enjoyed the course, but not this hole. 


http://www.lundingolfclub.co.uk/holes/burn/

I was stung quite badly by this hole...not knowing what was ahead. Its really a straight forward lay-up dead straight then wedge on the green.  It kind of reminds me of Prestwick's 1st.  Even though this is a blind drive...ya still want to keep fairly close to the OOB....the further left ensures safety, but more difficulty with the approach.  I don't hate it.


Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

The word "seriously" was meant to convey that my insinuation was facetious.

There are a bunch at the Old Course that fit the bill.


Seriously, this isn't that difficult. If you were to ask us to name a sub-330 yard hole that people think is awesome, that really stinks, now that would be a thread.

Please list that "bunch."  And why.    I can only think of #9 as sort of meeting that definition, and even that hole can leave you muttering under your breath as you head to the 10th tee.

[Bill_McBride]

The word "seriously" was meant to convey that my insinuation was facetious.

There are a bunch at the Old Course that fit the bill.


Seriously, this isn't that difficult. If you were to ask us to name a sub-330 yard hole that people think is awesome, that really stinks, now that would be a thread.

Please list that "bunch."  And why.    I can only think of #9 as sort of meeting that definition, and even that hole can leave you muttering under your breath as you head to the 10th tee.

I suggest a masters level course, "Art of the Emoji."   You sounded SO [size=78%]serious that I reviewed what might be considered as short par 4s from the tees I play at TOC.  [/size]

[David_Tepper]

Sean A. & Thomas D. -

#15 at Royal Dornoch has one of the 3 or 4 best greens on the course. As I mentioned in my initial post, getting your 2nd shot within 10' of the hole from even 40 or 50 yards away is no easy task.

DT

[Chris Mavros]

I was just thinking about this very topic when remembering my last round at Bala, where IMO there are two of them; 12 and 17.  The Twelfth is straightaway uphill to a green with bunkers on either side while the Seventeenth is a blind dog leg left with a decent green complex, but the dog leg and trees force you to simply clear the turn for your second shot. 

[Sean_A]

Sean A. & Thomas D. -

#15 at Royal Dornoch has one of the 3 or 4 best greens on the course. As I mentioned in my initial post, getting your 2nd shot within 10' of the hole from even 40 or 50 yards away is no easy task.

DT

David


But it should be quite easy most of the time to get a routine 4...the green is immense.  There is nowhere near enough risk to challenge the better handicap player in favourable to nuetral wind conditions. I really do think tech wrecked this hole...same for 17.


Ciao

[Matthew Mollica]

The National (Ocean) #15
Yarra Yarra #3
The Belfry (Brabazon) #10


Does the current presentation make anyone think Merion East #10 could be a nominee?

[MCirba]

17 at Arrowhead GC in eastern PA. 


7-iron, 9-iron on the 90 degree dogleg left thru woods.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean A. & Thomas D. -

#15 at Royal Dornoch has one of the 3 or 4 best greens on the course. As I mentioned in my initial post, getting your 2nd shot within 10' of the hole from even 40 or 50 yards away is no easy task.

DT

David


But it should be quite easy most of the time to get a routine 4...the green is immense.  There is nowhere near enough risk to challenge the better handicap player in favourable to nuetral wind conditions. I really do think tech wrecked this hole...same for 17.


Ciao

Sean,


just because it is a routine par does not make it a bad hole nor at 360 yards is it drivable in normal conditions except for a very small minority on the odd occasion. I agree that technology has had a negative effect on this hole for the better player but for the average player 15 offers a welcome respite from the rigors the previous few holes and those that follow.


Jon

[archie_struthers]

 


I thought the 18th at Eagles Landing in Ocean City , Maryland was pretty lame.  Been a while but 5 iron / 7 iron is pretty weird . Not quirky  just ran out of ground, or so it appears.  Maybe there is a wetlands story but it would be marginal during round and seems a really weird finisher .


Of course it's considered "the signature  hole".   Enough to doom anything

[Sean_A]

Sean A. & Thomas D. -

#15 at Royal Dornoch has one of the 3 or 4 best greens on the course. As I mentioned in my initial post, getting your 2nd shot within 10' of the hole from even 40 or 50 yards away is no easy task.

DT

David

But it should be quite easy most of the time to get a routine 4...the green is immense.  There is nowhere near enough risk to challenge the better handicap player in favourable to nuetral wind conditions. I really do think tech wrecked this hole...same for 17.

Ciao

Sean,

just because it is a routine par does not make it a bad hole nor at 360 yards is it drivable in normal conditions except for a very small minority on the odd occasion. I agree that technology has had a negative effect on this hole for the better player but for the average player 15 offers a welcome respite from the rigors the previous few holes and those that follow.

Jon

You are right, 15 isn't a bad hole, but it could and should be far better...right now its just a bit blah once you know the mound can be carried.  Its a much better hole into the wind.

I don't do back tees....the yellows are fine for me.  Though I think for this hole the back tees may be more how the hole was meant to play.  Though from a break PoV between 14 and 16, 15 is a breather.  I still say it needs something a bit more about it since the mound can often not be a factor.  I think breathers should really be cunning holes where bogey comes into play as much as par.  But hey, at least Dornoch has three short 4s which is very much a positive imo.

Ciao

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