[Jason Thurman]

Death, taxes, and GCAers naming a sub-330 yard par 4 as one of the best holes on the course. Are there any that just aren't very good?

[BCowan]

Kingsley 13th.  It's good, just not very good.  Could be very very good 

[Ronald Montesano]

There are a bunch at the Old Course that fit the bill.


Seriously, this isn't that difficult. If you were to ask us to name a sub-330 yard hole that people think is awesome, that really stinks, now that would be a thread.

[Matt Bielawa]

For my taste, the 3rd hole at Dormie would fit that description the way it's currently maintained.  The green is too extreme for the speed they keep it, IMO.

[BCowan]

For my taste, the 3rd hole at Dormie would fit that description the way it's currently maintained.  The green is too extreme for the speed they keep it, IMO.

spot on.  The green requires firm conditions and green speeds no faster then 10, instead its soft and 12 every time I play it.

[Thomas Dai]

One that immediately come to mind is the 15th on the 2010 at Celtic Manor. Stinks? Yip, decidedly smelly. One I'm not particularly keen on is the 13th at Enniscrone.


As an aside, should par-4's that are drivable have greens that are visible from the tee?


Atb

[Tom_Doak]

As an aside, should par-4's that are drivable have greens that are visible from the tee?

Please don't make up any more arbitrary rules for golf design.  There are already way too many!


As for bad short par-4's, the worst kind are those which insist on a long solid tee shot to have any hope of holding the green with the approach.  The great benefit of these holes is that they give the higher handicap player a chance at par or even birdie ... unless you build a green they can't hold with their best low-trajectory shot.

[BHoover]

The course where I grew up playing, which no longer exists, had plenty of sub-300-yard par 4s...and they all were bad.

[Peter Pallotta]

The course where I grew up playing, which no longer exists, had plenty of sub-300-yard par 4s...and they all were bad.

I played a course like that too. I've never really recovered: I still dislike that type of golf hole, as if on principle.

[Jason Topp]

Any short par 4 where everyone who knows the hole pulls out a driver or lays up.   

[Sean_A]

TOC's 9th for one. 


I played the 2010 course recently, its 15th is very mediocre. 


I don't think Dornoch's 15th is remotely special. 


Cruden Bay's 2nd does nothing for me, same for the 12th.


Woking's 1st is nothing special.


This list can be quite long!


Ciao

[jeffwarne]

TOC's 9th for one. 


I played the 2010 course recently, its 15th is very mediocre. 


I don't think Dornoch's 15th is remotely special. 


Cruden Bay's 2nd does nothing for me, same for the 12th.


Woking's 1st is nothing special.


This list can be quite long!


Ciao

Couldn't a shortish par 4 with ample driving room,minimal penal hazards and a receptive green encouraging bold play be good/great as part of a sequence of holes varied in difficulty and challenge , yet not be a standout by itself?

[Carl Rogers]

1. Tobacco Road No. 16
2. All the short par 4's at the Golden Horseshoe
3. Dormie No.14

[David_Tepper]

"I don't think Dornoch's 15th is remotely special."

Sean -

I do think #15 is a pretty good hole. The mound blocking your view of the green from the tee makes the tee shot interesting, especially for someone playing the course for the first few times. Trying to hit & hold that green with your 2nd shot, let alone get the ball anywhere near the hole is a real challenge, even from 60 or 80 yards away. 

DT

[Peter Pallotta]

I think what bugs me about the bad ones is that they so blatantly pander to my grovelling weaknesses: they say "You know you're a rabbit and not a tiger and I know you're a rabbit and not a tiger and your opponent knows you're a rabbit and you know that he knows it, so why don't we just stop the charade of trying to make you at least feel like a tiger and, if you're willing to swallow your pride and jettison your self respect, you can play this short, easy golf hole honestly and without pretence or pretention and maybe be lucky enough to actually halve it against a tiger. So what if he (and you) know that only on a very short and straightforward hole like me will you ever be able to compete with a better golfer?; that's just your ego talking, you rabbit. Be the rabbit you are.  Take this gift, and move on with gratitude".

[Ronald Montesano]

I need to meet this Carl Rogers, as he is my doppleganger. I disagree with each of these assessments, so I must be crazy!!

1. Tobacco Road No. 16
2. All the short par 4's at the Golden Horseshoe
3. Dormie No.14

[John McCarthy]

Tam municipal in Niles, IL.  It used to be a private called Tam O'Shanter that hosted many pro events.  I think the Jackie Gleason was there.


Anyway, the town took it, and turned it into a nine holes with many boring holes.  About three are driveable par 4s with no redeeming quality.   One or maybe two greens are left, one with real interest, number four with a diagonal double plateau. 


Lest you think I am beating up on this course, I play there twice a year and enjoy myself.  The food is great and it is a real drinking man's course.

[Brad Tufts]

I don't like those that have a completely miserable layup option that creates an awkward shot regardless.

Case in point, #1 at Stowe Mtn. Club....straight uphill 300, and you have to hit it 210 to reach the fairway.  So if you decide to lay up, you end up with like 70-80 yards.

[JJShanley]

Tam municipal in Niles, IL.  It used to be a private called Tam O'Shanter that hosted many pro events...and it is a real drinking man's course.

Scottish sounding name and a safe space for boozing?  Seems legit.

[Duncan Cheslett]

My nomination goes to the 15th at Hazel Grove, an old MacKenzie course in my home town which was decimated by an aborted road building project in the 1990s. This is one of the new replacement holes.


It is billed as a "risk and reward" hole having a pond (complete with fountain!) front left of the green.Yet its length of 285 yards makes it completely beyond the reach of 99% of golfers, there being no way to run a ball onto the green between the pond and two large bunkers.


It could work as a 190 yard par 3 or as a 350+ yard par 4 but as it is it simply fails abysmally as a piece of golf architecture. It's neither one thing or another.


"Going for the green" is reserved for practice rounds or when a good player's card is already shot to pieces.


Naturally, club members are very proud of their "signature hole" and routinely hit 5 iron /wedge for a simple par.





http://www.hazelgrovegolfclub.com/hole-15-flyover/

[Thomas Dai]

A short par-4 for the less skilful, for short hitters or for those of us who are getting on in years can of course be merely a long par-3 for pro's and elite and long hitting amateurs.



Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

"I don't think Dornoch's 15th is remotely special."

Sean -

I do think #15 is a pretty good hole. The mound blocking your view of the green from the tee makes the tee shot interesting, especially for someone playing the course for the first few times. Trying to hit & hold that green with your 2nd shot, let alone get the ball anywhere near the hole is a real challenge, even from 60 or 80 yards away. 

DT

David,


I was amused to see Sean point this out too as though Dornoch has several glaring flaws for such a vaunted course IMHO this is not one of them. Though I do not mind TOC 9th either so maybe I set my bar lower than Sean's.


I would throw the 2nd at Sandmoor in Leeds which is a later addition to replace 4 holes lost to housing in the 60's. It is a real stinker and followed by another equally awful though longer hole which detracts from the high quality of the rest of the course.


Jon

[Sean_A]

"I don't think Dornoch's 15th is remotely special."

Sean -

I do think #15 is a pretty good hole. The mound blocking your view of the green from the tee makes the tee shot interesting, especially for someone playing the course for the first few times. Trying to hit & hold that green with your 2nd shot, let alone get the ball anywhere near the hole is a real challenge, even from 60 or 80 yards away. 

DT

David,


I was amused to see Sean point this out too as though Dornoch has several glaring flaws for such a vaunted course IMHO this is not one of them. Though I do not mind TOC 9th either so maybe I set my bar lower than Sean's.

Jon

Dornoch's 15th is a bit of a nothing hole despite the mound...unless one is a short hitter.  I am not overly keen on the concept of a short 4 hole where flat bellies can usually easily hit over the trouble yet shorter hitters have to take it on the chin.  Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to double reward long hitting...especially when the hitting doesn't have to be terribly accurate. I think this hole would have been much better in the good ole days...its one where equipment has ruined its value.


Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

What a great handshake! I hate those forced-carry shots, too. For the golfer that desperately needs room to hit 150-150 or 160-160, this hole is not for her/him.

I don't like those that have a completely miserable layup option that creates an awkward shot regardless.

Case in point, #1 at Stowe Mtn. Club....straight uphill 300, and you have to hit it 210 to reach the fairway.  So if you decide to lay up, you end up with like 70-80 yards.

[Ronald Montesano]

Agreed. This one stinks. How much wear/turf damage does the landing area get? Have you ever attempted to convince members that this hole sucks for multiple reasons?

My nomination goes to the 15th at Hazel Grove, an old MacKenzie course in my home town which was decimated by an aborted road building project in the 1990s. This is one of the new replacement holes.


It is billed as a "risk and reward" hole having a pond (complete with fountain!) front left of the green.Yet its length of 285 yards makes it completely beyond the reach of 99% of golfers, there being no way to run a ball onto the green between the pond and two large bunkers.


It could work as a 190 yard par 3 or as a 350+ yard par 4 but as it is it simply fails abysmally as a piece of golf architecture. It's neither one thing or another.

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