[hhuffines]

I was told that in the starters shed and on the first tee.  It only mattered because my caddie didn't show.  I think I have an old one in the basement.

[David McIntosh]

I've also been told by some of the older members of the club that the 13th bank was more closely mown at one point in time but as others have said those conditions take the wall completely out of play as the sensible option would be to sling the approach into the bank and let it feed back on to the green.


I'd describe the density of the bank as ranging between a little shaggy and light rough. I've never seen it at what I'd describe as deep rough. Playing the ball into the light rough on the bank is still an option, you just run the risk that it sticks and you're left with a very tricky chip from a less than great lie. The alternative, if you get a little luck, is that the sting is taken out of the ball on the slope and it trickles softly on to the green. Incidentally, I have seen a ball lost on the bank once but that was one of those freak 'how did we lose a ball in this' moments when none of the group could believe we couldn't find it.


JJ, Hart,


I suspect the comments about not having yardage books was a tongue in cheek comment from the starter as they definitely have them at NB and can be bought in the pro shop. They don't normally prepare pin sheets though. They've just (in the past fortnight) run out of the current yardage book with the purple coloured cover and have been looking into getting a new style and more detailed book showing lines off the tee, more info on the approach/greens etc in for early next year.

[Sean_A]

I lost a ball beyond the 13th green once. The rough was nothing like light...it was damn hairy.  The entire course is hairy and tighter than previously.   


Ciao

[Richard Fisher]

The English seaside course that seems likewise to have risen most in general (and ranking) estimation during the period that Ran discusses is surely St Enedoc, another links that embodies those healthy virtues of fun, quirk, challenge and (relative) brevity?

As for Ran's general projection of a lifestyle including a flat in the Edinburgh New Town, with access to North Berwick and (just to be greedy) Luffness at weekends, I am with him 100%, although it might I think also be nice to have access to one or two alternative locations further south during the long, dark, cold nights of January and February.

[BCrosby]

The discussion reminded me of this article that I picked up somewhere. I know I have seen it on the wall at Tobacco Road where one surely needs to be able to appreciate Rembrandt, DaVinci, Picasso, each for its own merits.

Well done. Any idea who wrote it?


Of special interest is the passage "We have no intention of reworking our Old Master to suit each transient taste."


I hope that attitude can be recovered by The Links Trust.


Bob

[Bart Bradley]

Posting Hart's photo


%5BURL=http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/bartbradley/media/IMG_0496_zpsnhqxeeaw.jpg.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh629/bartbradley/IMG_0496_zpsnhqxeeaw.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

[Niall C]

If I could do anything on the course, I would soften the straight across the green, rise on the 4^th. That’s the most artificial feature on the course to me. The playing effect would be minimal - perhaps the right edge could funnel more balls to the bunker - but that’s what jars my eye.


But on the whole, leave well alone...

So, the step in the 4th green is more artificial than the wall that runs in front of the 13th green 


Niall

[Niall C]

I strongly believe rank and file raters still see the likes of Prestwick (which ain't a short course anymore Tom) and NB as odd outliers that have to be "dealt" with somehow.  The real question to me is if raters will permit the non-famous outliers to punch lists.  Its really quite an easy decision to include Prestwick and NB because they are and always have been famous.

Ciao

Sean


I think there is some truth in this. I suspect that raters have a herd mentality in that to a large extent they go and see what is already on the list and then tweak the list to suit their personal tastes. When Forfar cracks the world top 100 I'll know that's no longer the case. 


Niall

[Niall C]

I defer to Ran on such matters, and even (to some extent) to the consensus opinion; but I've been on this board for almost a decade and I still have no clue what we think Ran's predecessors -- e.g. the aforementioned Nick Edmunds, or Pat Ward-Thomas for example -- didn't know or recognize or value or appreciate about a course like North Berwick that we, now, so clearly say we do. Were they less well travelled/experienced than current-day counterparts like Ran? less sophisticated? more prone to being duped by the "championship" ethos than we are? unduly influenced by  contemporary tastes and temperaments? less able to embrace the true spirit of the game? I just can't see/imagine that. We toss off terms like "changing tastes", but I don't think we really mean it -- especially when it comes to a course that we rate very highly. What we actually mean, I think, is that we are able to see the greatness that was always there, while those in the past couldn't.  What's that about? Do we actually think that's true?

Peter


Coming late to the party as usual. I can't speak about Pat Ward-Thomas or Nick Edmunds but I can say that the likes of NB, Prestwick and Dornoch have always been well regarded here in the Old World and recognised as some of our best and most historic courses. Ran in his OP suggests that NB's stock has risen more than any other course in the last 20 years. If that is so then I suggest that is only to those that were unaware of it in the first place which is in the main overseas visitors.


While I've played most of the links in Scotland, plus a fair few in Ireland and a couple in England, I haven't played nearly enough to be able to judge where NB comes in the UK rankings but relative to some of the courses I have played I suspect that Nick Edmunds was closer to the truth in 1996 than Golf Magazines ranking of 68th in the world which is not to diss NB. Being ranked 36th in the UK is nothing to be sniffed at IMO.


Niall

[Tim Gallant]

I lost a ball beyond the 13th green once. The rough was nothing like light...it was damn hairy.  The entire course is hairy and tighter than previously.   


Ciao

I can't seem to embed an image as I would like, but here is a link of a photo of the 13th from September:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/137056743@N05/30416686924/in/dateposted-public/


I agree there were spots on the course where the rough got a bit wild this past summer (mainly due to the warm, damp weather), but I disagree that the bank on 13 is one of those areas.

[Ran Morrissett]

Sean,

To answer your questions,

1) Do you mean why no love for '10'? Benjamin's glowing description of 11 at the end of page 1 is the best I have ever read. In fact, on this round, my first there in a very long time, the two holes that far exceeded my recollections were 9 & 11.

2) In 1981, I drove the ball as far as The Open winner. In 2016, I drive the ball farther and can now be nearly ~100 yards behind this year's Open winner. It's the way the game has gone and a nest of bunkers protects the inside of the dogleg as a single bunker no longer can. Remember, the standard footprint of a bunker in a windy locale is smallish out of necessity, yet protecting the integrity of the dogleg is in everyone's best interest. The club had three options: 1) grow up the rough 2) add bunkers or 3) let the tiger bomb it relentlessly over the solitary one. I agree with Tony and am glad they chose #2. My picture shows well executed work IMO.

3) see point 1

4) I could almost write 'Seeing a ball swim off those high banks around the 4th putting surface is more interesting than not seeing it dance at 15' but that would HERESY, so I won't. 

5) No idea why 2 doesn't get more raves. In 1999 playing there with Dad, I remember thinking how dumb it was that there was a right greenside bunker as it ruined the reward of playing right close to the sea but in fact, that bunker is a goodish amount short of the putting surface. I do wish the fairway was wider, especially along the right but I generally wish all links fairways were 40+ yards wide.

In regards to many of the other posts, I think the rise in NB's stock may be tied to our having emerged on the other side of an era where the name architects built north of 200+ courses. I don't care how good you are, at those kind of numbers, you are bound to be repeating things. That boredom has helped foster a renewed appreciation for all the singular, one off courses like NB, Brancaster, Prestwick, St. Enodoc, Westward Ho! and indeed courses where the architect isn't even known.

On a personal note, years ago Ralph Livingston gave me the club below.




It is a Redan iron made by Ben Sayers with a slightly shut face, according to Ralph. Well! The Mickle blasted to North Berwick ahead of me and transported it like a scepter. His group used it first and the results will shock you (I'll let him tell the story). A couple of us in my group hit better shots with it than we did with our steels and I pulled a Norman at Troon/17, 'over pured' it, sending the ball over from where I failed to get up and down. The cool factor of hitting THAT club devised by THAT man on THAT hole was off the charts. It was my last round as a single Ran  - no better place and no better company for such an event.

Best,

[Sean_A]

Ran

1) Do you mean why no love for '10'? Benjamin's glowing description of 11 at the end of page 1 is the best I have ever read. In fact, on this round, my first there in a very long time, the two holes that far exceeded my recollections were 9 & 11. 

Sorry, I somehow missed you notes on #11.  Very fine.

2) In 1981, I drove the ball as far as The Open winner. In 2016, I drive the ball farther and can now be nearly ~100 yards behind this year's Open winner. It's the way the game has gone and a nest of bunkers protects the inside of the dogleg as a single bunker no longer can. Remember, the standard footprint of a bunker in a windy locale is smallish out of necessity, yet protecting the integrity of the dogleg is in everyone's best interest. The club had three options: 1) grow up the rough 2) add bunkers or 3) let the tiger bomb it relentlessly over the solitary one. I agree with Tony and am glad they chose

Why not two bunkers at the corner then? Why a fugly Trumpian cluster of 4?  More to the point, why bunker left and right at the green?  As I said, Doak's comments you quote no longer have any meaning.  This hole has gone from a subtle two bunker hole to a messy, penal 8 bunker hole.  Makes no sense to me...especially as your hypothetical Open winner doesn't play NB in the Open.  Is this yet another case of altering a course for the few? 

Ciao

[Jay Mickle]

On a personal note, years ago Ralph Livingston gave me the club below.



It is a Redan iron made by Ben Sayers with a slightly shut face, according to Ralph. Well! The Mickle blasted to North Berwick ahead of me and transported it like a scepter. His group used it first and the results will shock you (I'll let him tell the story). A couple of us in my group hit better shots with it than we did with our steels and I pulled a Norman at Troon/17, 'over pured' it, sending the ball over from where I failed to get up and down. The cool factor of hitting THAT club devised by THAT man on THAT hole was off the charts. It was my last round as a single Ran  - no better place and no better company for such an event.

Last year I played around Ireland with my hickory clubs. A day before I left I broke a shaft on my mid iron, Ran was kind enough to offer The Redan Iron. It was an indispensable club. When I planned my trip to Scotland this year I knew it would not be with my favorite iron. What to do. I called Ran and explained to him that Scottish lore held that if the Redan Iron were not returned to the olde sod periodically it would loose its magic. He was all in.
 
When I arrived at North Berwick the iron became an object of great interest to all who saw it. No one was even aware of the existence of such a club. Alan Chaney, a fellow member at Mid Pines/Pine Needles and resident of NB, was kind enough to host me. At the Redan we hit our blind tee shots, Alan's looked good, mine a bit right. As we approached the green my ball sat pin high but to the right of the green, Alan's ball still not visible. As we got closer his ball sat 5 feet below directly below the cup directly on the fall line. Alan was up the challenge of a knee shaking straight birdie put, I chipped up and in for par. A magic club indeed. On the following day I was back with David Warren, like Alan a fellow member at Mid Pines/Pine Needles and resident of NB,  and his friend Vic to again test the magic iron. It was for both of them, I taking a more direct line this time failed to carry the fronting bunker. Five shots, 1 birdie, 3 pars and a bogey, I was actually believing that the club did possess magic properties.

I left the Redan iron with the head pro for safe keeping to await Ran's arrival the next week. When Ran arrived he asked for the club and it seemed at first that no one knew of it, anxiety ensued until the head pro was reached and produced the club. I expect that the club saw much use in the intervening week and the magic was gone as none in Ran's foresome sniffed par. No matter, to just play the Redan, with the Redan Iron that had surely passed through the hands of Ben Sayers was magic enough.

[Tom_Doak]

2) In 1981, I drove the ball as far as The Open winner. In 2016, I drive the ball farther and can now be nearly ~100 yards behind this year's Open winner. It's the way the game has gone and a nest of bunkers protects the inside of the dogleg as a single bunker no longer can. Remember, the standard footprint of a bunker in a windy locale is smallish out of necessity, yet protecting the integrity of the dogleg is in everyone's best interest. The club had three options: 1) grow up the rough 2) add bunkers or 3) let the tiger bomb it relentlessly over the solitary one. I agree with Tony and am glad they chose

Why not two bunkers at the corner then? Why a fugly Trumpian cluster of 4?  More to the point, why bunker left and right at the green?  As I said, Doak's comments you quote no longer have any meaning.  This hole has gone from a subtle two bunker hole to a messy, penal 8 bunker hole.  Makes no sense to me...especially as your hypothetical Open winner doesn't play NB in the Open.  Is this yet another case of altering a course for the few? 

I disagree that any more bunkers were necessary for that hole.  It has always been an option to try and drive over the bunkers, but if you've tried it more than a couple of times you have probably lost a ball deep left somewhere out of sight and then you would both know what a stupid play it is.  Reinforcing the bunkers at the corner and forcing nearly everyone into one play - out to the right - has robbed many players of learning the vagaries of the hole the old-fashioned way.

[Bart Bradley]

Trying again to post Hart's picture for him.  Sorry for the technical difficulties.

[David McIntosh]

Bart,


Thanks for posting Hart's photo. The picture makes the rough look worse than it actually is as it's only really long enough to hold a ball on the bank and isn't of a length that you'd lose balls in it on a regular basis. The longer wispy golden-coloured grass doesn't have any impact on play as it won't stop a ball on the slope nor will it affect a swing as it's so light. As has been said earlier, this wasn't one of the areas where the rough really got up during the summer - the left side of 5, 7, 8 and 12 and to the right of 11 were the areas worst affected by the heavier than normal rough.


Tom,


I know that the 12th hole had a single fairway bunker on the dogleg when you made your comment in 1990 but, other than the extra three added to create a cluster on the dogleg, were the other bunkers in place at that time (i.e. a fairway bunker on the right side, the long one on the mound at the right side of the green and the two front and left centre of the green)?

[Sean_A]

The first time I played North Berwick must have been ~1992.  Check Steel's book.  It was printed about 1995 and I am sure it shows a two bunker hole.  There were only two bunkers on the 12th hole.  It wasn't that many years ago the right fairway bunker appeared and of course the three left fairway bunkers are new.  I don't know when the left greenside bunker was added, but I suspect not that many years ago.  The hole is slightly longer as well, maybe 15 yards.  Bottom line, this is a very different hole to the one I first played.   


Ciao

[PThomas]

if I could live in a small town near a course like this or Roaring Gap and be a member there, I'd be very content

[Thomas Dai]

The 13th - couple of questions.


A) was there ever more space between the wall and the beachline such that once-upon-a-time a player could hit over the wall from the tee and then play up the length of the green?


B) long and left of the green is an area of scrubby, low bushes. Have they been there forever, or at least a long, long time or have they self seeded in the last few decades and not been cut back?


Atb

[Marty Bonnar]

The 13th - couple of questions.


A) was there ever more space between the wall and the beachline such that once-upon-a-time a player could hit over the wall from the tee and then play up the length of the green?


B) long and left of the green is an area of scrubby, low bushes. Have they been there forever, or at least a long, long time or have they self seeded in the last few decades and not been cut back?


Atb

Dai,
I can't comment as to B, but as to A, I was in that very spot only a few weeks ago.
It's in bounds, but is basically a rough track with two sandy ruts amongst heavy (long) rough. I had a shot, but was lucky to do so.
It gives a lovely view of the length of the green too!
In terms of strategic value, if it was better maintained, short hitters might be inclined to drop their second shots there and have a go at a running shot. Could actually be quite nice...


F.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,


I know that the 12th hole had a single fairway bunker on the dogleg when you made your comment in 1990 but, other than the extra three added to create a cluster on the dogleg, were the other bunkers in place at that time (i.e. a fairway bunker on the right side, the long one on the mound at the right side of the green and the two front and left centre of the green)?

My recollection of the hole was of only two bunkers:  the one at the corner of the dogleg, and the oddly-oriented [but highly effective] bunker at the right flank of the green.  I tried to check this on the Google Earth timeline feature, but the oldest photo they have posted is from 2003, and by then they had added the stupid bunker out to the right.  I say "stupid" because the right-hand green side bunker makes going right off the tee a bad enough play ... the last thing you need is a bunker over there to penalize some players, and steer others back to the fairway.

[Simon Holt]

The bunker at the left and in front of the 12th green came in at the same time as the cluster.  They're all bad additions, along with the regular lengthening of the hole.


It's still one of my favourite holes on the course but it used to be so much better, simpler and softer on the eye.

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