Chipping areas on older courses!?

[TEPaul]

Jim Finegan, a dedicated student of the game and architecture, once said that restoring and preserving the old is important but when you do it understanding how some of the new can make it even better is important too.

Certainly advances in agronomy is a large part of the new and one of the most interesting examples of advances of the new combined with the old is the use of very close cut chipping areas that are popping up on older courses particularly with restorations.

These recently instituted chipping areas on some of the older courses are getting a diverse reaction, it seems to me. Many like and understand their multi-option playability while at the same time stating they look out of place and out of character on some of these older courses where they really weren't designed.

I like them on most of the older courses where they may never have been simply because they do create more choices of play and sometimes they alter the strategic ramifications of the hole but I don't know what to say about them as far as being out of  character or if that's of any importance.

Mr. Finegan is probably right, but I've watched restoration architects such as Ron Prichard struggle a little with the idea of them but go ahead and do them anyway. I think all in all I'm for them as they do add a lot sometimes to the interest of some of these old holes although they clearly may not have been planned that way originally. They probably are an excellent example, as Jim Finegan said, of how the new can sometimes make the old better than it may even have been at its best long ago. What do you think?

Some interesting examples of them;

1/ On numerous green-ends at the new Aronimink restoration
2/ To the left of #5 green at NGLA
3/ Some new ones that hadn't been before at my own course
4/ Possibly the most controversial one I know--Merion's #14

The last one is interesting to me because I think it works so well in a playability sense but numerous members and others seem very opposed to it as untraditional at Merion and very much out of character as there's nothing else like it on the course.

Merion's #14 is one of the more unique holes I know of and the new chipping area on the left is probably worth a separate thread. I think that chipping area creates some really significant strategic ramifications compared to the old bunkering on the left that used to be in its place.

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

I know the chipping areas at Aronimink and that one on the 14th at Merion.  

My opinion about those chipping areas is that they are correctly located but are cut in such a way that they do not look like they belong.

To put it another way they look like they are forced on the course rather than being part of the course.  The cut is in such a way that it does not look quite right.  The chipping areas do not melt into the rest of the course.

They look like wide tongues just cut short to create a chipping area for the sake of stating 'here, this is a chipping area'. The tongues should not be tongues and should be cut short all around the greens not just in nice little pretty ovals wherever the greenkeeper decides he wants them.

At Aronimink you have chipping areas that stop abruptly by Poa Protensis (Kentucky Blue) cut at something like 40 or 50 mm and to me it does not look quite right.

The one at Merion doesn't look right because it is forced on the hole and it doesn't suit the rest of the course.  Can you have just one or two chipping areas on a course?  if you are going to create chipping areas on one hole should you not have it on all the holes or at least many?

Chipping areas to me are unatural.  Either cut the bloody grass short around the whole green or leave it as semi rough or whatever.  Don't start to mess with creating 'fake' chipping areas.

Short grass around greens creates doubt and as Pete Dye is quoted as soon as you get those guys thinking then you hae got them!!

Ban so called chipping areas and cut the grass short all around the greens in my opinion and let some imagination come back into the game.  That is how I think Ross would have wanted it with those green complexes at Aronimink.  You can play all sorts of shots onto the greens from off the edge if the grass is kept short all around.

I don't think it would suit Merion though.

Brian.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I agree with Brian Phillips 1000 %.

Chipping areas have become the latest fad, and course after course is forcing these prescribed tongues next to their greens.

I have a slightly different take on this.

Irrigation systems have choked golf courses with rough vis a vis narrow fairways and the areas immediately surrounding greens.

Golfers/green committees view chipping from these carved out sections of roughed up areas as a form of relief and create these areas in random patterns where ever the green committee feels they'll fit.

The cost, financially, emotionally and politically to get rid of all of the surrounding rough is too high, even though it may be the right thing to do, hence a hybrid area is created, as a compromise to what should be a blanket endorsement for removing most/all of the surrounding rough.

But, that's just my opinion, you're still wrong about everything else  

[T_MacWood]

Is the USGA responsible for the new infatuation with chipping areas? It seems to me they created them on all or nearly all of their recent venues. That might explain the one at Merion.

[brad_miller]

Chipping area's have been added with the help of Bill Coore and Supt. Stan George to many of the holes at Prairie Dunes. Numbers, 1,3,5,6,9,11,12,15,16. As far as I know the response has been quite favorable. It has been noted that it will take ~ a year for them to play as F&F as they should, this was done this past spring.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I don't think that the USGA has had anything to do with it.

I think that Pete Dye and other architects began introducing these long before the USGA dreamed of them, and, I think several restoration architects, especially on Donald Ross courses re-introduced them.

How many more USGA conspiracies can you come up with ?

[brad_miller]

Pat, chipping areas where on the agenda pre US Woman's Open at PD. Don't know from which or both sides, but they were talked about.

[ForkaB]

I'm with Brian on this.  Tongue-like manufactured chipping areas are like training bras--a step in the right direction, but nothing compared to the real thing.

This is part of a great series of threads going on now on this DG which all seem to lead to one inevitable conclusion, first suggested by Gary McCord at a long gone Masters, to wit:

Bikini Wax!

Yes, gents, shave every extraneous thing off our courses--bunkers, trees (stupid or otherwise), water hazards, rough, ball washers, cart paths and even flagsticks--and just play the ball over the pristine ground, as god and old tom morris intended!

I'm only slightly kidding........

[Dunlop_White]

In essence, chipping areas should be determined by the natural lay of the land around the green site. Rough typically buffers many collection areas today. Instead, I believe that closely cut grass should be prescribed through the collection areas, but not necessarily in a uniform manner. Again, allow the land to determine your cut, not a committeman or superintendant who wants to get artistic with his Toro 3100 contour mower. Too often these chipping areas appear much too manufactured and contrived.

[TEPaul]

"Tongue-like manufactured chipping areas are like training bras--a step in the right direction, but nothing compared to the real thing."

Rich:

That's hilarious--a fantastic remark and one I'm going to try hard to insert into this whole "chipping area" issue now and in the future--and I suggest that others on here do the same without fail!!

I think the responses to this question and this interesting new design and maintenance phenomenon and feature are really good and make great sense. Thanks Dunlop for the diagram--one only needs to study it a bit to see the commonsense of its playability and increased natural look of the type of thing you're suggesting!

Brian:

I think your right about Merion's #14. I think it works extremely well on that hole in playability but unfortunately does look out of place on the course as it's the only instance of it. There are a few other possibilities at Merion but of course they wouldn't be original or traditional there. The high side of #5 is a possibility (and fairway will soon be cut ALL THE WAY AROUND the carry bunker on that hole!!). Possibly chipping area should be carried higher on the hill to the right of the green there but I doubt a ball would stay there if that was done. The only other possible place I can think of would be perhaps behind #18 but I doubt they'd consider that! Basically Merion's green-ends just weren't designed for this type of feature.

[GeoffreyC]

Plainfield CC has also introduced quite a few chipping areas as part of Gil Hanse's wonderful restoration.

They too suffer from the exact same typical maintenance as described in Dunlop's post. As an example, the rear of the 9th hole has a closely mown area leading directly to 4-5 inch rough. The recovery from such an area is very difficult and one dimentional.  It's actually much harder then the US Am setup at Oakmont because the tall grass is now farther from the green edge.

[mike_malone]

 We put one to the right of #1 at Rolling Green.It is really an extension of the fairway around the right side of the green.I like it.Flynn's plans indicate doing something different around the front of this green.However nothing was done.Based on today's heavy watering of rough all of our rough around the greens is much lusher than originally.So,every shot becomes the same---lob wedge.
      The selective use of chipping areas adds different shots.This i think is somewhat classic.When our course was built the ragged nature of the rough created varied shots,now we have become one dimensional.
  There can also be a visual aspect to this.Because the right hand shoulder of this green complex is now shorter grass it has a different look,which i also like.The side of the green that falls off to the right catches your attention.
     I find these to be particularly attractive on approaches where no bunkers exist.
      I also think they fit into some archie's(Thomas) fairway in back of greens concept.
   

[TEPaul]

GeoffreyC:

I think Dunlap is a tire or a tennis racket or something--not the esteemed Mr White from Winston-Salem N.C.  

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

I watched a good deal of play with that right chipping area on RGGC's #1 to a far right pin position in the Pa Senior Championship. It was really good stuff. Essentially that combination (chipping area and right pin) created a very THIN "margin for error" situation of real reward and real risk (in a scoring spectrum sense!).

If one wants to see some really good chipping areas on a Flynn course they should check out what Shinnecock is doing in this vein. At least it was excellent the last time I was there. I just hope that's not something the USGA is shrinking in too (in their overall "narrowness" wisdom) in preparation for the 2004 US Open!

[mike_malone]

 Relative to Dunlop's maintenance issue,i agree completely.When we laid out our version  on #1  RG the rough was to begin at the bottom of the downhill.However,we moved it to the uphill a few feet away.This makes a huge difference.Balls end up in the area most of the time.
   There is another hole i want to do this on RG,but it is only downhill. So.most balls will roll into the  rough.However,here the idea is to actually end up in the rough some ten yards off the green.In this instance it is not to have a shot from fairway off the green but to have a tougher rough shot uphill to a green that slopes aswy.(I lied--there is another hole i want to change)
   These fairway length areas can have different uses.In the instance i propose it will challenge shots long and right.
    Much of this has to do with subtle changes to react to modern technology and add variety.
    This relates to other threads that dealt with fairway width.On courses with sloping fairways or firm/fast conditions there is much opportunity to use fairway length grass to promote roll.Redanman speaks of "golfing ground".This ground may better be used as fairway than rough.
   We should examine this ground on our classic courses.Sometimes this will lead to changes that the original architect may not have done,but are consistent with his vision,so that he might do them today.

[mike_malone]

 I like what Brian says.In the instance of #1 at RG,we just extended the fairway around the right side of the green.It does stop at the back of the green because the ground dictates it.There are some of these at Huntingdon Valley as well.Some i like ;some i do not.There is one at the back of #17.I wonder what they are trying to accomplish with that.The one at the back of the short #4 adds "sphincterization" to a wedge shot.I like that one.
     I would like to extend the fairway around the right and the back of our #7 hole(after we cut down those stupid trees).Why? Because i think Flynn saw this hole as classic "ground game".So,let's promote the ground game.High rough stops the ball .Get rid of it.

[Jeff Goldman]

The recent renovation/restoration of Ravisloe in Chicago by Dave Esler added a lot of areas around greens with low cut grass.  I hesitate to call them chippping areas because they appear to be extensions of fairway and greens for the most part rather than tongues surrounded by the usual rough.  Brad Klein knows a lot more about this, but they were a lot of fun to play.  Brad's book notes that the course is on a flat site and was one of Donald Ross's most unusual, with a huge number of cross and other bunkers (including a bunch of pot bunkers), so the idea of closely mown areas around the greens may work better here.  A lot of that has been brought back, in manner of play if not in original form.

Jeff Goldman

[Kevin_Reilly]

A "chipping area" was put in place on the left side of the 9th green at Olympic for the '98 Open.  It was a complete failure...totally contrived and artificial.  I don't think many shots were played from it.  I remember thinking at the time that chipping areas were the "flavor of the month" at the USGA and damned if they weren't going to have one at every one of their championships.

[RJ_Daley]

The Maintenance Meld that includes chipping areas is so very design-construction dependent.  As to the older courses that the original question of this thread asks, it depends on the design style.  For instance, the highly manufactured pushed up greens and table top greens of the Raynor Langford kind have very few places where the short apron or fairway cut can work well because most slopes at the sides and behind lead down steeply often into flat bottomed bunkers.  But, the tyically crowned greens of Ross are more friendly to that maintenance practice of an apron cut or fairway cut away from the green to collection-chipping areas.  Also, the "older courses" were designed with no sprinkler systems, or just one quick coupler at the edge to setup a portable sprinkler attached to a hose.  That gave them some extra latitude in where to throw the irrigation water.  With set in-ground heads of more modern designs, the chipping areas have to be part of the head placement design, or significant new heads and controlers need to be reconfigured.  

I think the best designed chipping area courses of the older classic era are what is found in Australia.  There, Metorpolitan, Royal Melbourne, and those other older classics that we see on TV from the winter circuit of events televised from OZ, indicate that they have more fully understood the maintenance meld and the designs had apparently incorporated the wide greens surrounds to be maintained as chipping areas.

The two modern era courses I am familiar with, due to their greens siting laid upon the terrain naturally, without a great deal of artificial surrounds shaping, are Rustic Canyon (particularly #12), and Wild Horse.  There, the wide surrounds seem to be the ideal concept of collection hollows and chipping areas tied to exciting greens that take into account internal green contouring related to the chipping areas.  Of course nothing beats fescue chipping areas where that turf option is possible...

[mike_malone]

 RJDaley
  It is so much fun to watch those Aussie tourneys.I love how they have closely mown areas between their greens and greenside bunkers.So often you see balls trickle into the bunkers after hitting the green.

[Mike_Clayton]

R.J

If you asked anyone in Australia what a 'chipping area' was they wouldn't know what you were talking about.
They have never been a topic because we have never grown rough around the greens and gravity has always been seen as sufficient punishment as it allows the slopes around the greens to take the ball away and leave a difficult recovery shot with plenty of options - putter,4 iron,8 iron or a high lob.
From what I have seen in America you like to make easy shots difficult by forcing everyone to play from terrible lies i.e if the lies were perfect the shots would be simple.
The trick of Royal Melbourne and the rest of the sandbelt is to have difficult shots around the green but to always play from them from perfect lies.

mayday_malone
I always found it bizzarre that you would grow rough around bunkers so balls wouldn't run into them - I guess we grew up taking it for granted that was the way it ought to be.

[Paul_Turner]

I agree wholeheartedly with Brian's comments.  The chipping areas at Aronimink clearly have interesting shots, but they just look daft in those funny shapes, with rough surrounding.

[SPDB]

Tom - specifically on the one at Merion, I think it works so well not because of how interesting it makes play from that side of the green, but also how with the big bump there, it creates the temptation to use to get the ball to a back left pin placement, but at a perilous risk of having your ball come to rest in that area.

Didn't Merion use to mow everything in the area betw. 14-16-18 at fairway height, i.e. no rough?

[TEPaul]

I'm delighted with all these really thoughtful responses to chipping areas--some really good stuff. I wish some of the clubs doing it could look in here for ideas on how to improve these new features in playability and look. Mayday's remarks about how they tweaked the area to the right of #1 RGGC up the hill a bit to make balls not come to rest against rough is perfect logic. Redanman's general statement about analyzing "golfing ground" in this vein is also perfect. Brian's points on a more natural "look" in chipping area parameters is so logical too.

SPDB:

I too like the playability of the chipping area to the left of Merion's #14 while admitting it is somewhat out of place at Merion because it's now basically the only place it exists like that on the course.  But I do like the playability of it and what I like even more is the strategic ramifications of it  opposed to the rough and bunkering that used to be in its place. Not only the multi-optional playability from it but the fact it's there makes second shot strategy into that green a whole different deal. Players tend to steer clear of that area far more than they used to because the ball can get over the road and OB much easier now. What that does strategically is bring the bunkering on the right of the green much more into function and into the player's mind!

[SPDB]

Tom - I'm not so sure about it being so out of character with the course. When they take the fairway lines out (which they've begun doing in earnest in the last 2 weeks), I'm not so certain that 14 won't bear at least a passing resemblance to 5 when they take the fairway around that bunker short of the green. And really, if you think about it, the strategy will be the same, make an aggressive ground play challenging a green area hazard to get to tough pins. In the case of 5, it will be the short bunker, and at 14 the hump.