[BCowan]

Just curious  to any courses preferably in the midwest with nice low mow blue fairways that have preformed well?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Not sure about MI but all of CO is essentially bluegrass fairways from Denver on up into the Rockies.  The grass of choice here.  I think because of low disease pressure, dry air, and cool temps the blue tolerates lower HOCs than the more hot and humid environment of the Midwest.

[Jeff_Brauer]

My limited experience with it suggests it does okay in the upper Midwest, not so well the further south you go.

[Ian Andrew]

Rock Creek was best I've ever seen

[RJ_Daley]

Wild Horse in Gburg NE has had incoparable success with dwarf blue since opening in 1998.  I have never seen it in anything but excellent firm and fast, beautiful lies in many seasons of play each of those years. 

[Tom_Doak]

We've used bluegrass for fairways twice, at Rock Creek and Common Ground.  In both cases it's worked quite well. 


Rock Creek has maintained it tighter than I imagined, so that you can chip and run from off the greens with success.  Common Ground is more interested in keeping costs down and presenting a surface that's playable for the average public golfer.


As Tom B says, it's most effective in low-humidity areas where you don't have to worry about getting a lot of rain in the summer months, so disease pressure is low. 


I have yet to see a study to document how much less expensive it is to maintain than other grass types.  Every time I ask a superintendent, they say there are too many variables from one course to the next [water cost, height of cut, etc.] to make a meaningful comparison.  I get those caveats, yet it feels like the industry in general does not want maintenance numbers to be out there, for fear high-end clubs will realize how much more than the norm they are spending.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I have yet to see a study to document how much less expensive it is to maintain than other grass types.  Every time I ask a superintendent, they say there are too many variables from one course to the next [water cost, height of cut, etc.] to make a meaningful comparison.  I get those caveats, yet it feels like the industry in general does not want maintenance numbers to be out there, for fear high-end clubs will realize how much more than the norm they are spending.

But there IS too many variables. Just like comparing courses and their budgets. Acreages are different, expectations are different. The numbers are out there, Tom. All Superintendents, GMs, and Board of Governors are aware of the budgets of clubs around their own. There are multiple yearly comparisons of staff, turf, wages, chemicals, fertilizers, water source, water quality, turf type. Certain areas of the country just cannot sustain certain grasses, or be as successful as a club would like and I do not mean bent vs. bermuda.

[BCowan]

We've used bluegrass for fairways twice, at Rock Creek and Common Ground.  In both cases it's worked quite well. 


Rock Creek has maintained it tighter than I imagined, so that you can chip and run from off the greens with success.  Common Ground is more interested in keeping costs down and presenting a surface that's playable for the average public golfer.


As Tom B says, it's most effective in low-humidity areas where you don't have to worry about getting a lot of rain in the summer months, so disease pressure is low. 


I have yet to see a study to document how much less expensive it is to maintain than other grass types.  Every time I ask a superintendent, they say there are too many variables from one course to the next [water cost, height of cut, etc.] to make a meaningful comparison.  I get those caveats, yet it feels like the industry in general does not want maintenance numbers to be out there, for fear high-end clubs will realize how much more than the norm they are spending.

Tom,


   Thanks for the response.  I've heard that low mow did poorly in SE mtn tracks, thus it makes sense it struggles in humidity.


    I ask my close friend every now and then what is the cost per sqft or sq yard to maint his 007 bent fairways, he always tells me ill get back to you on that.


    Unfortunately even some 1%er clubs that may waste on maint it is dwarfed by the money lost in 40,000+sqft clubhouses.  it keeps happening, nothing learned from 08'. 


    The great news is all the successful bents being breed. Flagstick is the most dollar resistant of them all and can be maint at higher cut if desired.  Bent grass can eventually get close to bluegrass maint costs.  I predict in 18 years that Pinehurst area courses will go back to bent. 


The hardest transition is training keepers to maint the new bents, when they are used to maint poa.  There may come a time that bents need little or hardly any imputs. That's how good the turf science is.

[Tom_Doak]

I have yet to see a study to document how much less expensive it is to maintain than other grass types.  Every time I ask a superintendent, they say there are too many variables from one course to the next [water cost, height of cut, etc.] to make a meaningful comparison.  I get those caveats, yet it feels like the industry in general does not want maintenance numbers to be out there, for fear high-end clubs will realize how much more than the norm they are spending.

But there IS too many variables. Just like comparing courses and their budgets. Acreages are different, expectations are different. The numbers are out there, Tom. All Superintendents, GMs, and Board of Governors are aware of the budgets of clubs around their own. There are multiple yearly comparisons of staff, turf, wages, chemicals, fertilizers, water source, water quality, turf type. Certain areas of the country just cannot sustain certain grasses, or be as successful as a club would like and I do not mean bent vs. bermuda.

Tony:


OK, how much per acre do you spend on your fairways?  Let's get the conversation started.


By the way, I don't agree that everyone knows how much everyone else is spending.  Years ago I know that Shinnecock and National each thought their course was in good shape for spending quite a bit less than the other one.  When they discovered that in fact they were both spending about the same amount, one superintendent was quickly let go.  I suspect that's why the numbers aren't shared quite as freely as you say.

[Anthony_Nysse]

I have yet to see a study to document how much less expensive it is to maintain than other grass types.  Every time I ask a superintendent, they say there are too many variables from one course to the next [water cost, height of cut, etc.] to make a meaningful comparison.  I get those caveats, yet it feels like the industry in general does not want maintenance numbers to be out there, for fear high-end clubs will realize how much more than the norm they are spending.

But there IS too many variables. Just like comparing courses and their budgets. Acreages are different, expectations are different. The numbers are out there, Tom. All Superintendents, GMs, and Board of Governors are aware of the budgets of clubs around their own. There are multiple yearly comparisons of staff, turf, wages, chemicals, fertilizers, water source, water quality, turf type. Certain areas of the country just cannot sustain certain grasses, or be as successful as a club would like and I do not mean bent vs. bermuda.

Tony:


OK, how much per acre do you spend on your fairways?  Let's get the conversation started.


By the way, I don't agree that everyone knows how much everyone else is spending.  Years ago I know that Shinnecock and National each thought their course was in good shape for spending quite a bit less than the other one.  When they discovered that in fact they were both spending about the same amount, one superintendent was quickly let go.  I suspect that's why the numbers aren't shared quite as freely as you say.

 I will wont go into detail, but there was a lot of politics involved in that Superintendent no longer having his services need, if its the Superintendent that I am thinking of. Not fairway spending. And if it was before him, your comment isn't relative anymore. 
  Tom, Superintendent share numbers. They do. It's a fact and I know it because I've participated in many, for years. We do it to compare/contrast and justify.  Every place I have every worked in the country-Michigan, South Carolina, Texas, Florida and also a course down the road from Shinnecock and National, Superintendents share numbers.


I can tell you when we spend per acre to maintain the golf course. But what we spend on fairways is comprised of soil types, turf, (new turf) leaching, expectations of the membership, etc. Too many variables to list.

[Tom_Doak]

  Tom, Superintendent share numbers. They do. It's a fact and I know it because I've participated in many, for years. We do it to compare/contrast and justify.  Every place I have every worked in the country-Michigan, South Carolina, Texas, Florida and also a course down the road from Shinnecock and National, Superintendents share numbers.

But do they share them with the green chairmen and boards, or only amongst themselves?


I can tell you they don't much share them with architects.  That's why it's so hard for us to make good decisions on turfgrass choices, and why so many just fall back to what the seed salesmen say.

[Anthony_Nysse]

  Tom, Superintendent share numbers. They do. It's a fact and I know it because I've participated in many, for years. We do it to compare/contrast and justify.  Every place I have every worked in the country-Michigan, South Carolina, Texas, Florida and also a course down the road from Shinnecock and National, Superintendents share numbers.

But do they share them with the green chairmen and boards, or only amongst themselves?


I can tell you they don't much share them with architects.  That's why it's so hard for us to make good decisions on turfgrass choices, and why so many just fall back to what the seed salesmen say.

I can see that. I know many of use share with our BOGs for good or for bad. Always important to know what the neighbors are doing.


 I don't see why the architect should be in the look on grass selection. I know ours this summer, had experience with Latitude 36 and were very in favor of our selection. We, as a club, made the selection/recommendation prior. No grass salesman. I would think that it would be beneficial for an architect to know what grass before contraction so that he/she can design accordingly, especially when using grasses in the transition zone or zone that are more mountainous.

[BCowan]

Tom,


    It's just like renovations.  Oakland hills had to vote on a renovation that was significantly higher then orchard lake, Meadowbrook, and Birmingham. Out spending the jones is a badge of honor.  Just like a GM can't admit that they lose money.  Some pressure keepers to run carts in December warm spells to help offset their loses. 


    You and I need to get number from upscale public, where the keeper gets his hands dirty and cuts cups along with delegating.  Unlike the carryall keepers that just ride the course and goes to board meetings.


   These new turf grasses are going to cut app rates which won't sit right with Chem companies down the road.  I can deff see them buying up seed companies to keep great seed products oFF the market

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,


    It's just like renovations.  Oakland hills had to vote on a renovation that was significantly higher then orchard lake, Meadowbrook, and Birmingham. Out spending the jones is a badge of honor.  Just like a GM can't admit that they lose money.  They pressure keepers to run carts in December warm spells to help offset their loses. 


    You and I need to get number from upscale public, where the keeper gets his hands dirty and cuts cups along with delegating.  Unlike the carryall keepers that just ride the course and goes to board meetings.


   These new turf grasses are going to cut app rates which won't sit right with Chem companies down the road.  I can deff see them buying up seed companies to keep great seed products oFF the market

I don't even know where to start. Some of Ben's information couldn't be more wrong.

  For our renovation, we spend many millions of dollars LESS than multiple clubs in our area, yet did a complete renovation, including bringing in 3500 dump trucks work of material to raise the golf course.
  Our GM has never pressured me, at any of the clubs I've worked at, to run carts to increase revenue.


Many of the upscale public DO NOT do renovations because they cannot afford to close because of the capital investment coupled with losing revenue. I would say for every 8 private courses that gets a renovation, 1 public will get some sort of capital investment and it's usually not regrassing. It's usually bunker work.

Many new grasses do not cut any app rates. This same thinking happened when all the new ultradwarfts came out. "You never have to aerify, you never have to spray, you never have to water." 15 years later, they are 10x the work of the old tifdwarfs.

[BCowan]

Tom,


    It's just like renovations.  Oakland hills had to vote on a renovation that was significantly higher then orchard lake, Meadowbrook, and Birmingham. Out spending the jones is a badge of honor.  Just like a GM can't admit that they lose money.  They pressure keepers to run carts in December warm spells to help offset their loses. 


    You and I need to get number from upscale public, where the keeper gets his hands dirty and cuts cups along with delegating.  Unlike the carryall keepers that just ride the course and goes to board meetings.


   These new turf grasses are going to cut app rates which won't sit right with Chem companies down the road.  I can deff see them buying up seed companies to keep great seed products oFF the market

I don't even know where to start. Some of Ben's information couldn't be more wrong.


  For our renovation, we spend many millions of dollars LESS than multiple clubs in our area, yet did a complete renovation, including bringing in 3500 dump trucks work of material to raise the golf course.
  Our GM has never pressured me, at any of the clubs I've worked at, to run carts to increase revenue.


Many new grasses do not cut any app rates. This same thinking happened when all the new ultradwarfts came out. "You never have to aerify, you never have to spray, you never have to water." 15 years later, they are 10x the work of the old tifdwarfs.

Tony,


    That's ur experience, so to say my info is wrong is dissengenous.  In the north these things can happen. my close friend uses way less apps and 40% less water.  U never have to aerify is the biggest mistake some seed sellers say.  There is a learning curve with maint pure bent vs poa bent.  It would take u 6 months to catch up on how to maint pure bent.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tom,


    It's just like renovations.  Oakland hills had to vote on a renovation that was significantly higher then orchard lake, Meadowbrook, and Birmingham. Out spending the jones is a badge of honor.  Just like a GM can't admit that they lose money.  They pressure keepers to run carts in December warm spells to help offset their loses. 


    You and I need to get number from upscale public, where the keeper gets his hands dirty and cuts cups along with delegating.  Unlike the carryall keepers that just ride the course and goes to board meetings.


   These new turf grasses are going to cut app rates which won't sit right with Chem companies down the road.  I can deff see them buying up seed companies to keep great seed products oFF the market

I don't even know where to start. Some of Ben's information couldn't be more wrong.


  For our renovation, we spend many millions of dollars LESS than multiple clubs in our area, yet did a complete renovation, including bringing in 3500 dump trucks work of material to raise the golf course.
  Our GM has never pressured me, at any of the clubs I've worked at, to run carts to increase revenue.


Many new grasses do not cut any app rates. This same thinking happened when all the new ultradwarfts came out. "You never have to aerify, you never have to spray, you never have to water." 15 years later, they are 10x the work of the old tifdwarfs.

Tony,


    That's ur experience, so to say my info is wrong is dissengenous.  In the north these things can happen. my close friend uses way less apps and 40% less water.  U never have to aerify is the biggest mistake some seed sellers say.  There is a learning curve with maint pure bent vs poa bent.  It would take u 6 months to catch up on how to maint pure bent.

 
I guess having a degree from Michigan State University, a father with 40 years of turfgrass experience in Michigan, and 20 years experience myself lends me to not have a good understanding of the golf business in general. My experience isn't just MI of FL-It's also, NY, SC and Texas-built courses, renovated courses and helped host PGA Events. I feel as though I have a very good thumb on the industry and communicate with my peers thoughout the country, daily.
   I have never, under any circumstances had head a turf professor, salesman or even greenschair say turf doesn't need to be aerified. It has a much to do with the soil as it does the turf. It's a benefit to both, and I'd argue it's more beneficial to the soil. With poor soil, it doesn't matter what grass you have.


  You went down this road a few months back talking about Diamond Springs and their maintenance, how the place was built and how you thought they should be doing things. I gave you clean cut answers and reason because of direct knowledge and you didn't want to hear it.

[BCowan]

Tom,


    It's just like renovations.  Oakland hills had to vote on a renovation that was significantly higher then orchard lake, Meadowbrook, and Birmingham. Out spending the jones is a badge of honor.  Just like a GM can't admit that they lose money.  They pressure keepers to run carts in December warm spells to help offset their loses. 


    You and I need to get number from upscale public, where the keeper gets his hands dirty and cuts cups along with delegating.  Unlike the carryall keepers that just ride the course and goes to board meetings.


   These new turf grasses are going to cut app rates which won't sit right with Chem companies down the road.  I can deff see them buying up seed companies to keep great seed products oFF the market

I don't even know where to start. Some of Ben's information couldn't be more wrong.


  For our renovation, we spend many millions of dollars LESS than multiple clubs in our area, yet did a complete renovation, including bringing in 3500 dump trucks work of material to raise the golf course.
  Our GM has never pressured me, at any of the clubs I've worked at, to run carts to increase revenue.


Many new grasses do not cut any app rates. This same thinking happened when all the new ultradwarfts came out. "You never have to aerify, you never have to spray, you never have to water." 15 years later, they are 10x the work of the old tifdwarfs.

Tony,


    That's ur experience, so to say my info is wrong is dissengenous.  In the north these things can happen. my close friend uses way less apps and 40% less water.  U never have to aerify is the biggest mistake some seed sellers say.  There is a learning curve with maint pure bent vs poa bent.  It would take u 6 months to catch up on how to maint pure bent.

  I have never, under any circumstances had head a turf professor, salesman or even greenschair say turf doesn't need to be aerified. It has a much to do with the soil as it does the turf. It's a benefit to both, and I'd argue it's more beneficial to the soil. With poor soil, it doesn't matter what grass you have.


  You went down this road a few months back talking about Diamond Springs and their maintenance, how the place was built and how you thought they should be doing things. I gave you clean cut answers and reason because of direct knowledge and you didn't want to hear it.

I went down this road with you a few years ago when u looked down at club members helping out with storm damage at Grosse ile, you were too good for that.


I know people that are close to diamond springs as well. their father in law drives 45 mins to play the course weekly.  I still stand by my opinion that people outside passing through would stop by and play if the fairway turf was better and firmer.  Just because your father help built doesn't mean he is right about the golf  market as in what the consumer wants outside 30 miles. Of course locals play it and it's doing fine. 


Please state where i said a greens chairman or prof said not to aerate?

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I don't want to get in the middle of the poo flinging in this thread, but let's say that a conversion to a new fairway bent DOES lead to significantly less inputs.  What then happens 10 years down the road when the stand is now 40% poa?  That 40% of will demand massive inputs just as it always does.  The point is that these decisions can't be made in a vacuum, because yes, the VARIABLES involved.  That being said, being open minded about grass choices, and asking questions about the different species is a GOOD THING.


Going back to the original question, what about the various fescues in the Midwest?  Any successes with those grasses as a fairway turf?

[Craig Sweet]

Winner winner!!!!


Yeah, new grass looks wonderful. Fewer inputs, maybe less water....BUT 15-20 years down the road your wonderful blue grass is now 70% poa and you're fighting a constant balance between over watering and more inputs versus drying things out and starving your turf....  That is life

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