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Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« on: October 01, 2003, 01:09:42 AM »
What do you guys think are the toughest holes in the Top 100 or so golf courses in the US (give or take depending on what list you want to use- just trying to filter out stupid courses)

I would advance the following 3 to get started:

Par 3:
#10 WFW

Par 4:
#4 Olympic

Par 5:
#17 Baltusrol

Everone chime in now! Lets hear some more nominations!

Adam_Jessie

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2003, 06:04:04 AM »
I would have to say that #11 at Shinnecock has to be somewhere in the 25 if not top 10.

Would anyone out there even go as far to say that the 7th is in the top 100 as well?  

Thanks Adam

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2003, 06:10:36 AM »
Evan.

Par 3     17th TPC  

Par 4       8th Pebble Beach

Par 5      5th  Pine Tree    ( 610 into prevailing wind)
             18th Pebble Beach

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2003, 07:03:26 AM »
Par 3 - Winged Foot (West) #10

Par 4 - Bethpage (Black) #15  

Par 5 - Olympic Club (Lake) #16

Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2003, 07:26:55 AM »
Ah, boys, you mention mere puppy dogs.

#13 at Sand Hills is #11 at Shinny only its 70 yards longer!!!!!

Plays like the second shot on #15 BB to basically same elevation but again longer.

Never seen any hole produce so many Xs on a scorecard by so many good players!
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2003, 07:27:50 AM »
Oooops!

Didn't see the "s" after hole(s)!

They all qualify!
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2003, 07:34:57 AM »
How about putting all of them at One site:

Par 3: #5 PVGC

Par 4: #13 PVGC (Might well be eclipsed by BB#15)


Par 5: #15 PVGC  ...How many eagles ever fly here??
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2003, 09:25:53 AM »
In total agreement with Slapper, who beat me to the punch.

An alternate set:

Par 3: #16 CPC
Par 4: #18 TPC
Par 5: #16 Firestone South

KLP

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2003, 09:33:03 AM »
#4 at Plum Hollow.  Sam Snead took a 10 on it in the '57 Western Open and ended up losing to Ford by one stroke.  For the four rounds, he played the hole 8-over par and the rest of the course 16-under.  He said it is the most difficult hole he had ever played.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2003, 03:41:10 PM »
From what I've played

Par 3: PV#5

Par 4: TCC(open) #12 (hardest hole on the planet, IMHO)

Par 5: have to think about it, but off hand I'd agree with PV#15.

wsmorrison

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2003, 03:47:48 PM »
Evan,

Do you mean most difficult holes to par or better par?  I think there is a distinct difference.  #9 at Rolling Green is very difficult to birdie (among the most difficult holes I know) but not to make par on.

CHC1948

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2003, 04:45:49 PM »
Evan,

These are some from my limited experience!

1. #4 Lineville
2. #4 Seminole
3. #6 Seminole (when windy)
4. #18 Yale (From the elevated back tee)

DTaylor18

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2003, 08:30:25 PM »
#18 at Yale.  I have yet to figure out how to play it and everyone I know that has played it feels the same.  High or low handicapper doesn't seem to matter, it's just a mystery.

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2003, 08:57:50 PM »
not sure if this counts as top 100 or not, but i recently played huntingdon valley toomey/centennial. and i must say the 2nd hole of the centennial course is one of the hardest i have EVER seen.  

wayne, as a side note , one of the highlights of my golfing summer was birdying the 9th at Rolling Green, driver, 3Wood, 7Iron to about 10 feet, made the put :D, of course, i was not playing it from the 610 yard tees ;)

jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

SteveTL

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2003, 09:01:04 PM »
Par 3:
16 @ Cypress or 5 @ PVGC

Par 4
18 @ Southern Hills

Par 5
1 @ Spyglass

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2003, 10:07:42 PM »
Not being intimately familiar with any of the holes so far listed, I am sitting here wondering if raw distance is the dominant (not the only) feature of all these holes?

Oh, sure, I could do the research, but that takes the interaction out it..... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2003, 10:41:44 PM »
Slapper,

Tough to dispute your selection

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2003, 03:13:52 AM »
Some more nominees:

Par 3: #12 Dunes (Myrtle Beach)

Par 4 #12 Cascades

Par 5 #14 Pebble

Comments?

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2003, 05:54:12 AM »
Two par 4 5th holes come to mind..

Bulle Rock (400 miles long, 90 degree dogleg, straight uphill)
Bandon (into the wind, it's a tough par 5!)

JC

TEPaul

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2003, 06:55:33 AM »
I see a few have nominated #13 PVGC. That hole is really hard to par for anyone who doesn't hit it long. But there's an oddity about that hole I've noticed over the years--that being the tee shot. The hole is a long one (about 460) but long hitters rarely seem to use driver there anymore (the reasons are interesting) and consequently seem to leave themselves a bit too far back for their approach sometimes. The hole may be scheduled for lengthening by 20-30 yards (as Crump intended) and in my opinion might end up making that hole easier to play for the long hitter as that might be just enough take a long iron or 3 wood on the tee shot out of their hand (Holman's hollow and the subtle nature of the topography just past it!) and put the driver back in their hand!

JohnV

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2003, 08:25:43 AM »
Since someone else did Pine Valley's top three, how about these three from Oakmont:

Par 3 - #16
Par 4 - #15
Par 5 - #12

Not that any of the other 15 holes there should be overlooked.

JDoyle

Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2003, 09:04:18 AM »
The hardest par 3 I have ever played is #5 at PV.  When you come around the corner and see it for the first time you forget everything about how to hit the ball.

But I might put the 14th at Rolling Green in second place.    WOW! What a hole.  210 yards on the card but it plays uphill about 15-20 feet.  You have to carry all of it and anything short right is dead as you are either in a huge bunker or you roll down to the bottom of a valley.  And the front of the green is very slick.  Terrific hole and probably a big swing hole in match play.

Mike - thanks for the tour.

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2003, 09:09:32 AM »
Par 3:  Pine Valley       #5

Par 4:  Pinehurst #2    #5

Par 5:  Harbour Town  #15
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2003, 09:17:58 AM »
Anyone nominate #9 at Jupiter Hills yet?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Most Difficult Holes in the US Top 100
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2003, 09:53:28 AM »
I see a few have nominated #13 PVGC. That hole is really hard to par for anyone who doesn't hit it long. But there's an oddity about that hole I've noticed over the years--that being the tee shot. The hole is a long one (about 460) but long hitters rarely seem to use driver there anymore (the reasons are interesting) and consequently seem to leave themselves a bit too far back for their approach sometimes. The hole may be scheduled for lengthening by 20-30 yards (as Crump intended) and in my opinion might end up making that hole easier to play for the long hitter as that might be just enough take a long iron or 3 wood on the tee shot out of their hand (Holman's hollow and the subtle nature of the topography just past it!) and put the driver back in their hand!

Tom makes a very interesting point, but one that needs even further clarification. A prominent reason this hole remains so difficult, and long is that the tee shot needs to find its home in a relatively narrow landing zone to even offer up a reasonable, if lengthy approach to a tought to hit green. nearly all the shots (often inc. the putts) need to have a draw component. The tee ball, if drawn, must start out at a spot that if hit perfectly straight, will likely leave a partially blocked out apporach. If overcooked, the fairway cant will leave only a lay-up. The ultimate fairway zone is only about 30 paces wide and considerably defended by rough at the far end, and blocking trees and brush on both sides....thus making the drive the stiffest test of any PVGC four par.
   The approach is no day in the park either. Again, a draw of never less (unless your last name is Kuene or Woods) than 185-195 yards is required and must land on the side fron to the green in order to hold and put a putter in ones hand. The hollow and surrounding bunkers are miserable places to look at hitting from and thus most PV caddies correctly advise laying up to the ample area right of the green. If a lay up is played, one quickly, if smart enough to carefully look, sees a sloping away green that is usually way fast...thus producing perhaps the toughest 4 par (w/out any extraneous factors such as wind, technology, etc..) out there.

   Although tough, it is one of the MOST fun 4 pars anyone could ever play, because ANY par feels like a birdie and any bogey feels like a par....even more than any other PVGC par 4.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith