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Ran Morrissett

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Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country New
« on: November 29, 2016, 04:08:21 PM »
 Why isn't the work of Charles Banks more heralded? Perhaps my own experiences, marred by abundant ignorance  :-[ , helps shed some light.

In 1985 while working for the USGA, I was very fortunate to get to play with PJ Boatwright, a very tidy player among other things. The site was Montclair Country Club, the venue for that year’s US Amateur championship. Neither course resonated though I remember liking the Banks nine best but not enough to find out who Banks was! Thinking back and armed with more knowledge I appreciate the talent that Banks displayed in turning the least interesting land into the best nine. Indeed, that's the power of good architecture.

Two months later, I played Yale for the first time. LOVED IT but at the time, I thought Macdonald was the architect  :-X and had no clue that a man named Banks was involved in the construction effort. Five years hence experienced Mid Ocean. LOVED IT, while oblivious to Banks's substantial contribution. Another 5 years…..got to Yeaman’s Hall; LOVED IT but again didn’t know that Banks led the construction effort and, indeed, finished the course.

Entrenched down under in 1999, I receive a small parcel from an 'on-line’ acquaintance of the newly formed web site GolfClubAtlas. It contained a booklet from George Bahto of New Jersey, titled The Legend of The Knoll, which he had written in 1993. George of course became best known for his research on Macdonald and Raynor and why not? They are 'glam names' but what many may not realize is that it was George's love for The Knoll, designed by Charles Banks, that was the impetus for all that ensued.

George and Gib's seminal work, The Evangelist of Golf, was released in 2002 and slowly I stumbled to the truth. Several trips around Bank’s masterpiece, Whippoorwill, has cemented my understanding of the Banks's profound - and not readily replicated - talent for boldness.

Shame on me for not getting to Forsgate sooner as one thing that Forsgate trumpets is that like Macdonald and Raynor, Banks could build 'great’ golf holes. As noted in Volume 3 of The Confidential Guide, I contend Forsgate has the best set of one shotters to emerge from the Macdonald school. How fitting it is to add a Forsgate profile while the updated North Berwick profile thread is glued to the top of the Discussion Group! It is just another example of how the game was successfully translated from the Scottish coast to North America. Those supremely fortunate members at North Berwick with their zany greens should revel in this profile and Banks's greens.

Similar to North Berwick, Forsgate has a bunch of great holes, more than some of the bigger name clubs in New Jersey. Personally, I rank Forsgate in the second five among the courses that I have seen in the state, behind Pine Valley, Somerset, Ridgewood, Plainfield and Baltusrol Upper. It's in the pack with Mountain Ridge, Hidden Creek, Hollywood and Baltusrol Lower; which is a very strong showing in a state with very good golf.

Like Langford & Moreau, Banks is slowly getting his proper due. I hope this profile helps in that regard and while the cold rainy November day wasn't ideal for photographs, Banks's bold architecture still 'shines' through. See if you don't agree.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forsgate-country-club/


Best,
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 07:58:02 PM by Ran Morrissett »

John Kirk

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2016, 12:40:46 AM »
We have very few courses like this on the west coast.  Those steep slopes and deep bunkers would make me think carefully about what I was doing.  Even if you miss, the penalty is often an exciting shot to attempt.  Still, the course rating/slope from the member tees (72.4/136, 6670 yards) indicates that overall, the course is about the same difficulty as most top flight club courses.  Most of the good players up here in Oregon are used to gentler green complexes, and I would guess that few would appreciate these greens.  The course here with the most severe green complexes is Waverly CC, and most good players consider far too severe, or "tricked up".

The patch of deep grass short and right of the 17th (Biarritz) green seems rather cruel to me.  I'm not sure why that is maintained that way.

Thanks for another excellent profile, Ran.  In the next few days, I'm going to send you a short list of Christmas songs.


Bret Lawrence

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2016, 09:39:13 AM »
Great tour Ran!


I am a big fan of Charles Banks work.  I think his work is less heralded because his portfolio is rather small compared to the other great architects.  His courses are also in areas saturated with great courses, so it's a little harder to make them stand out against their peers.


One question I have always had regarding Charles Banks is his association with Mid-Ocean.  Mid-Ocean was completed on December 15, 1921.  Raynor first visited Hotchkiss on October 23, 1923.  Raynor didn't even meet Banks until two years after Mid-Ocean was completed.  How is it possible that Charles Banks worked on the original construction of Mid-Ocean?


Bret

Blake Conant

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2016, 10:06:50 AM »
I saw Forsgate this fall and thought it was the best example of Banks' work I've seen (including Whipporwhill).  All the dirt is still in place, and it's amazing to think how much better it could be if they got the trees, mowing, and native in control and properly expanded the greens to fill the pad.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2016, 10:20:33 AM »
By chance, my brothers college roommate was a member (or his family was) at Forsgate.  I was in high school, but he mentioned how unique a course it was and later brought pictures.  I had never seen anything quite like it and the roommate was astute enough to know it was really different, even though at the time neither of us knew the architect or how to find out.  I made a point to visit it on a trip out east and it was special.  That and a bit later, Shore Acres (not Banks, but mostly Raynor) made me a fan of this school of architecture.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

MCirba

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2016, 10:26:52 AM »
Terrific profile Ran, of a very unique golf course.   Here's a bit of what I wrote after playing there for the first time earlier this year.

The Banks Course at Forsgate has terrific "bones" with an intact original routing and some appropriately terrifying deep and steep bunkering from "Steamshovel Charles Banks.   Indeed, it's an interesting exercise to simply view the course from a cut and fill perspective to see how his deep excavations created the necessary dirt to build up his features.

The land has some nice movement and the course fits the ground well, with the routing taking advantage of some natural features such as the cool punchbowl benched into the hillside on #5.   The par threes are particularly stellar, and well representative of the MacRaynor templates, with Forsgate offering an Eden, a Redan (reverse), a Short, and a Biarritz that is staggering in its dimensions.   Those holes punctuate the landscape and are the clear highlights.

Not that the rest isn't noteworthy but with few exceptions, most notably on the back to back par five 8th and 9th, it relies on a sameness of style and strategic demands that becomes a bit predictable.

What ultimately diminishes Forsgate  however, is the over-planting of low-lying soft white pine trees that line most fairways.   They cheapen the experience and diminish the potential to use angles to approach the wildly bold, highly undulating greens.   In fact, removing all of them would likely bring the course up a full Doak Scale point or more;  the architecture is that compelling.   Unfortunately, that seems unlikely.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 10:29:16 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Blake Conant

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2016, 11:06:40 AM »
A great example of the impact of their shrunken greens is the lost back right pin on the 15th, chocolate drop.  If the green expands out to the edge as it should, then you recapture the back right pin which forces the player to hug the chocolate drop bunker for the angle. 

John Sabino

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2016, 11:07:43 AM »
Nice profile as usual Ran. I am lucky enough to play Forsgate several times a year and have always though the long 8th hole to be among the best golf holes anywhere. Not that it needs any more to make it difficult, but it is a beast into the wind.


You hit the nail on the head with Whippoorwill and Forsgate, Banks has been underappreciated in the past (thankfully no longer). I agree with you on the Redan hole also. During the summer when the greens are running fast it's very difficult to hold a ball on the top half of the green.
Author: How to Play the World's Most Exclusive Golf Clubs and Golf's Iron Horse - The Astonishing, Record-Breaking Life of Ralph Kennedy

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Eric LeFante

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 11:27:41 AM »
Great profile Ran.


I was fortunate to play Forsgate a few times in 2015. The right pin on 3 is a do-or-die shot. A long iron to a pin with a 15-foot deep bunker right and large mound in the middle of the green that makes a 2-putt very difficult from the left side of the green.


I wasn't lucky enough to play 16 from the back left tee. The angle from there is much better than the straight on tee sheet from the right tee. As Ran's pictures show, that back portion of the green is very narrow and the bunkers on each side are deep. With the penalty being so high for missing right, left, or long to the back pin, only the most confident golfers will be able to get their ball pin-high to the back pin. The front portion is so much safer that it's hard to commit to get your shot back there.


It's hard for me not to compare Forsgate to Essex County Country Club. I believe the first 6 holes at Essex County CC are Tillinghast and the rest is Banks. The 11th at Essex County CC is an Eden. The green is much bigger and the mound in the middle is not as severe as Forsgate. Essex County's version has a fairly steep false front that can be quite cruel. Frank Espisito was leading the NJ State Open in the final round in 2014 until he hit is first putt towards the front left pin too firm and the ball rolled 40 yards off the green. His 7 on the hole cost him the championship.


The 16th greens at both Essex County CC and Forsgate are Double Plateaus. The slope to get to the right and back tiers are more severe at Essex County CC than Forsgate.


In Volume 3 both Ran and Tom rated Forsgate higher than Essex County CC. I would not have guessed that.   
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 11:30:23 AM by Eric LeFante »

Jay Flemma

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 07:17:29 PM »
It may be the hardest Eden hole in the world...in fact, it's a All-world collection of par-3s and par-5s there:)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Nate Oxman

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 07:32:04 PM »

"The patch of deep grass short and right of the 17th (Biarritz) green seems rather cruel to me.  I'm not sure why that is maintained that way."


John, the deep grass short of the green isn't in play. It has never entered my thoughts while on the tee.


The deep grass right of the green isn't really in play either unless you're playing all the way back and you blow it way right. There's a long bunker bordering the green on the right side. You can see it on the photo near the end of Ran's piece and I'm pretty
sure Joe Bausch has a photo illustrating this as well.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 07:34:11 PM by Nate Oxman »

Carl Nichols

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 08:28:58 PM »
The course looks good, but it sure seems like they could use some significant tree removal. The aerial and hole diagram look like there were basically no internal trees.

Blake Conant

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2016, 09:41:14 PM »
The course looks good, but it sure seems like they could use some significant tree removal. The aerial and hole diagram look like there were basically no internal trees.


Not to say they couldn't lose a ton of trees, but being such a tight routing with so many parallel holes you need to keep some.  They've got some great, mature trees out there, too, that should be kept. 

Joe Bausch

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2016, 08:17:16 AM »
Thanks for that nice review, Ran.

More pics (with hole diagrams, too):

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/ForsgateBanks/index.html

If you prefer larger, less compressed photos, choose this server instead:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/ForsgateBanks/
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 08:27:50 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
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Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Ran Morrissett

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2016, 04:27:41 PM »
Bret,

I was going off of George Bahto's Raynor notes which he mailed to me before passing away.

He clearly has Banks and Ralph Barton at Mid Ocean. He also has the formal opening date of Mid ocean as 1/7/1924 and he shows it as a two year build.

That difference from your 1921 date would obviously explain a lot. Intuitively, it makes sense that Banks was there and that his presence dovetailed into his building the nearby Castle Harbour course. I appreciate the Mid Ocean web site says December, 1921 but that's what I know.


Mike,

Forsgate has a new Green Keeper (maybe even since you were there) and I can tell you he 'gets' Banks (which isn't always a given). Both Stephen Kay and Donny talked about 'playing angles' with me and I think that more good news lies ahead.

Best,
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 04:35:06 PM by Ran Morrissett »

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2016, 06:59:08 PM »
Ran,


Thanks for the profile of one of my favorite courses. My former club, Commonwealth National, in the Philly burbs, was owned by the company that managed Forsgate. We had access to Forsgate and I usually played there 2 or 3 times a year. It was my first exposure to a MacRaynorBanks. Subsequently, I played others- North Shore, Essex and The Knoll- but Forsgate remains my favorite of this genre. My ambition is to bring this type of course to the desert, if only to have a few holes redesigned at my current club.
Also, Forsgate has a rich history of club pros- among them Peter Oosterhuis and Billy Ziobro.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Melchiors

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 09:04:06 AM »
Thanks Ran,


I used to belong to Forsgate when I lived in central NJ and it got me interested in architecture (and this site).  The par 3 holes really are fantastic, though #3 routinely destroyed any promise I generated on the first two holes. 


I agree with others and think that 7-9 and 16-18 are both great and it's very difficult to appreciate the depth of the bunkers without actually seeing them.  My biggest complaint was always about the evergreens - some are certainly there for safety and perhaps a necessary evil, but there are quite a few that should go and would make a big difference.


They also added a completely unnatural mound of dirt on #4 (probably the weakest hole) to make the hole more difficult and, well, it's terrible.  It's a great course though, and I do miss it.


Also of note is that they have a second 18 that is one of my least favorite courses every played.  Not sure how many clubs have two courses that different in quality - routing, land, greens, surroundings, maintenance were all night and day.


-Joe

MCirba

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 10:02:29 AM »
Ran,

Thanks for the additional info and encouraging words.   It would be great to see.

I once heard someone call soft white pine trees "Noxious Weeds", and my buddy Joe Busch refers to them in language that can't be repeated on a family website.

Personally, I would like to see them distributed worldwide as free Christmas trees, or perhaps cut into foot long pieces to serve as Yule Logs,  their only justifiable purposes for existence.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Forsgate profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2016, 03:24:30 PM »
Ran,


Thank you for clarifying the opening date. The date of December 15, 1921 came from Scotland's Gift Golf.  I made the same mistake as the Mid Ocean website.  Macdonald writes a letter on that date to Mr. Blackiston.  After rereading the letter it is clear that when he referred to the completion of the course he was referring to laying it out, not constructing it. 


I am a big fan of George's work and admire everything he did.  He was the first author I've ever wanted to meet after reading his book!  I just think he had conflicting information. My biggest concern is that he may have gotten the Banks at Mid Ocean information from the Cornish and Whitten book.  They were under the belief that Banks left Hotchkiss in 1921, which would fit this timeline.


In Georges book or older threads he tells us that Banks worked part time in the Summer of 1924 and left Hotchkiss to join Raynor full time in 1925.  Hotchkiss started construction in the Late Spring of 1924 and was completed by the Summer of 1925.  Raynor first visited Hotchkiss in October 1923.  From 1923-1925 Banks was still a master of English at Hotchkiss. 


My point is, even if Banks left on a boat the day he met Raynor in October 1923, how much more construction work would there be (for a 1/7/24 opening) and how much knowledge would he have acquired at that point?  I just think we should reconsider the Mid Ocean-Banks timeline?  I would also think George knew all of this inherently, he just had so much good information he forgot to go back and edit it sometimes.  If he has information that Raynor met Banks prior to Hotchkiss in 1923, he has never published it.


Bret


I don't mean to detract from this great Forsgate thread, so back to Forsgate.


I haven't played Forsgate, but it looks like a lot of fun.  It reminds me of Whipoorwhill which was a treat to play. The green contouring looks terrific!






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