[Steve_Roths]

I remember years back (10+) Doak wrote an article for Esquire Magazine on twenty course worth seeing for their architect merit.  I am wondering if he had an updated version of that list.


I have picked up one or two over the years from his comments, but I would be curious if there is a new 20 that he has found over the years.


Arrowtown in NZ is one I have seen listed.


Also, Tom are you still planning on doing a book on the building of Pacific Dunes.

Thx.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't have a copy of that Esquire article anywhere, so it's tough to remember what courses it included.  I've certainly seen a bunch more worth writing about in the past three years, traveling to update the book.


Pacific Dunes has gotten so much press over the years that I'm not sure there is another book worth writing.  The only part of it that hasn't been well documented is how I came up with the routing, so I am starting to work on a book (or two) about that process for each of my courses.  Between that and finishing The Confidential Guide series, I think my commitments as an author are pretty full.

[Ruediger Meyer]

Is it this one?


http://www.esquire.com/lifestyle/tips/a1387/golf-essential-eighteen-courses-0400/

[Steve Salmen]

I'm surprised to see WF, PB and OH over CD, Shinnecock and Chicago.

[Jon Wiggett]

An interestting list and all very good courses but I was surprised to see only one none US course (unless I am mistaken). I thought Mr. Doak had traveled a little more than that.


Jon

[David_Tepper]

Jon -

The article is headlined "The Most Important Golf Courses in America" and yes, it is also noted that one of the courses on the list is not in America.

DT

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks David,


didn't actually read the title though St.A inclusion would seem a little odd. If Mr. Doak is so desperate to have it in the US then why does he not design a course with its main features I wonder. It is strange that that for all TOC's standing it has never been done as far s I am aware.


Jon

[Tom_Doak]

didn't actually read the title though St.A inclusion would seem a little odd. If Mr. Doak is so desperate to have it in the US then why does he not design a course with its main features I wonder. It is strange that that for all TOC's standing it has never been done as far s I am aware.

Actually, I just completed a reversible golf course that is low on visual cues for the golfer.  Eventually maybe someone will see the obvious comparison.

[David_Tepper]

"It is strange that that for all TOC's standing it has never been done as far s I am aware."

Jon W. -

The Jack Nicklaus-designed "New Course" at the Grand Cypress Resort in Florida (built 25-30 years ago) is nominally a tribute to the Old Course.

http://www.grandcypress.com/orlando_golf_resort_club/course_information/

I have never seen the course so I cannot comment as to what it looks like or how it plays. Given the nature of the weather and turf in Florida vs. Fife, I am guessing the two are not quite the same.

DT

[Jon Wiggett]

David,


I have not seen the JN course either.


Tom,


there are many courses that are quoted as being inspired by TOC and holding to the traditions of all that is important to it. I would humbly suggest that the main qualities that TOC hold traditionally are:


- the basic out and back with the course using more or less the same playing corridors.
- use of highly contoured double greens on many holes.
- contours being the largest part of the strategy of the course.
- little opportunity to lose the ball
- Playable for all standards


The reversibility of TOC has to do with the changing of the direction of play and was not a conscious design feature but its ability to do so is partly a part of its charm.


Jon

[Tom_Doak]

I would humbly suggest that the main qualities that TOC hold traditionally are:


- the basic out and back with the course using more or less the same playing corridors.
- use of highly contoured double greens on many holes.
- contours being the largest part of the strategy of the course.
- little opportunity to lose the ball
- Playable for all standards

I would humbly suggest that you are never going to see the first two features you listed imitated on any American course, for safety reasons.  And, indeed, I'm not sure that ripping off that aspect of The Old Course would be a fitting tribute to it.  The last three items, on the other hand, are the real legacy of St. Andrews and I think that we've nailed two of the three at Forest Dunes ... although it is still very possible to lose a ball in the native roughs alongside the holes.

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

indeed the first two would require careful management and the right concept but in my opinion would be more than possible even in the US. Given the example of the Sheep Ranch which without the correct rules would be more than a little dangerous is an example that such ideas can be realised. There are many examples of shared playing corridors and double greens at a private clubs to give an idea of how this might be done.

I fail to see how to copy these two points is ripping off TOC any more than copying the other points unless we accept that being influenced by anything already built is ripping off the source material.

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

Jon, there is only ever one group out on the Sheep Ranch at once; I'm not sure it is a great comparison

[Jon Wiggett]

Adam,

The use of the Sheep Range was just to show that with the right concept it is possible to do something that is not the norm. I am not sure you are correct with only one group as I have seen threads on here where there have been more than one 4ball out on it but yes restricted numbers of players is one of the rules which makes it safe and therefore possible. I seem recall that having the correct rules was exactly my point so it is quite funny to have you use it to show how it was a 'not good example'  


On the other hand if TOC were so dangerous as to be unbuild-able these days due to H&S do you think it would still be open inits current format? It is under no historiacel protection, historiacal presidence is certainly not enough and it isn't even listed. I suspect it might be down to the fact that there is a long history of safe play with no more cases of accidents than the average course.

Jon

[Sven Nilsen]

Jon, there is only ever one group out on the Sheep Ranch at once; I'm not sure it is a great comparison

Adam:


Technically not true.  I've been out there when three separate groups were on the course, with each group broken up into separate smaller groups.


That being said, a busy day is probably around 25 golfers.  It takes a bit away from the "make up your own routing" aspect, as you're generally avoiding other groups as opposed to trying to come up with cool holes.


Sven

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