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Matt Frey, PGA

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This board is prone to some abstract questions subject to debate and members' opinions, so I have one of my own for you.

This past weekend, my wife and I visited Fallingwater, the Frank Lloyd Wright masterpiece home in Southwestern Pennsylvania. My wife is a big FLW fan, has read a lot about him and has visited a few of his works, but has never seen Fallingwater before. The building is spectacular. If you aren’t familiar with the name, I’m sure you have seen pictures of it before (see below) as it’s a National Historic Landmark and was named the "best all-time work of American architecture” by the American Institute of Architects. Our tour didn’t allow us to take photos of the interior of the house, which is a shame because the interior is every bit as impressive as the exterior.

One thing that I learned from the tour, which my wife said she had read before, that FLW designs are notorious for leaking a bit. Not necessarily a dangerous amount, but little leaks here and there. It can be expected in a home such as Fallingwater as it is literally built over a stream / waterfall and into a hillside, of which, its bedrock is integral to its design, however, it surprised me that buildings that aren’t as exposed to nature but are just as intricate, are prone to leaks.

That got me thinking about how it may relate to golf course architecture. As a universally renowned architect, FLW still had some key flaws in his designs. Are there any examples in golf course architecture where a well-known architect designed a hole that looks great on paper, but after the hole was completed, some issues bubbled to the surface? It may be hard to pinpoint examples, as I am sure, that especially in today’s world, it is too easy to fix a flaw in a golf hole.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 03:43:42 PM by Matt Frey, PGA »

Joe Hellrung

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2016, 04:05:35 PM »
I think the gradual lengthening of golf courses fits into this category.  Looks good on paper to make the courses keep up with tech advances, but impact on the game and GCA has a lot of unintended consequences. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2016, 04:28:50 PM »
Matt,

This might be the best topic ever on golf club atlas.com!  Obviously, the answer is yes, and your phrase "bubbles to the surface" pretty well describes what happens all too often in golf architecture, because some of the most important aspects are irrigation and drainage (water, always too much or too little, just a couple of minutes a week where you have the exact right amount.....)

I have made a point of posting in ten plus years here about some of the elements that make a design complete, even knowing it bores the snot out of golf architecture buffs who prefer to think only about strategic aspects of the game.  You got a sense of it last week when I dragged out my 75 point checklist to make sure a green design works.

It is my belief that the professional architect gets paid to take those golf elements, and make sure they work through proper turf, irrigation, drainage, flood control, paths and circulation, other agronomics like soil, etc.  While I understand other good architects will have different opinions than me on what constitutes "working" I will say I am surprised at how some of even the big boys miss on the infrastructure and circulation aspects of design, that result in hard to maintain, worn areas, etc. 

The list is too long to even start, not to mention, anyone could go to any one of my designs and find at least a few circulation or whatever flaws.  Sometimes in design, some things just can't be worked out to satisfy all criteria and compromises must be made.  I have told the stories before, but my biggest dumbfounding moments in architecture occurred when I was told by known architects that they spend a maximum of two days routing, and accept there will be bad holes because of it.......I had another instance on a current project, when I found out an engineer had laid out the course, and not even bothered to get a topo map.  Both golf and houses suffered....

I sometimes wonder about the subtle issues and ethics.  One well respected architect seemingly gets a lot for their money.  Upon deeper digging, I find they put in far less irrigation than I would, and only drain the course for the smallest storm, like 1/4" per day (I would drain for at least that much in an hour to get play back on the course).  The drainage is a problem forever, until fixed, and most of their courses realize the shortages and go back and add irrigation.  Is it right to make yourself look good (at least for a few years) by spending more on pizazz that is easy to see, over more important stuff underground?

Another builds bunkers they knew would be rebuilt in a year (maybe by them) that look great and increase chances of "Best New" awards.  Is it right to make yourself look good (at least for a few years) by building something that looks great, but is a beast to maintain (depending on how sophisticated the owner is....some may know, want and agree with this plan)

Of course, sometimes you spread it all thin because the Owner's budget is just too small to start with, but that wasn't always the case in the first example. And "how much to irrigate" can be a judgement issue, with supers usually wanting more, and environmentalists and budget guys (who probably don't know golf....) wanting less, and perhaps it is they who force the issue on the unsuspecting course.  Of course, having seen the same mistake many times over 39 years as a gca, I wonder when they will learn.  But, its always a new "they."

I am sure not calling out other architects, nor calling for some kind of industry standards about how to spend money.

Sorry for the long wind, but the key statement here is that professional architects SHOULD design good golf elements, and simultaneously design/engineer for safety, good turf, irrigation, drainage, flood control, paths and circulation, other agronomics like soil, etc., to make sure the design truly works and functions well.   

Otherwise, in my humble opinion, just playing in the dirt.  One without the other is not a good design. 

And yes, as revered as FLW is, he has been called out for too small doorways (he was short), roof leaks, some structural issues, and some impractical (uncomfortable) furniture in his designs, design more for looks than sitting.  I did the FLW Chicago Tour a few years ago, including the Robie House and was amazed at how dark the place was, of course, knowing that electricity was not quite as prevalent in those days.  But, there were other issues, and in general, I came away thinking he spent too much on style, not as much on usability in his designs.

 

« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 04:36:12 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2016, 04:33:56 PM »
Are there any examples in golf course architecture where a well-known architect designed a hole that looks great on paper, but after the hole was completed, some issues bubbled to the surface?
The 17th at TPC Sawgrass?
Atb

Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2016, 04:36:40 PM »
Jeff: Thanks for the answer. I think you raise very good points that many, including myself, may not always take into account when evaluating a design.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2016, 04:38:58 PM »
Are there any examples in golf course architecture where a well-known architect designed a hole that looks great on paper, but after the hole was completed, some issues bubbled to the surface?
The 17th at TPC Sawgrass?
Atb

The only thing about the 17th I see is that the narrow path to the green funnels traffic to one path, causing wear patterns and certainly more work for the super.  When I worked for KN, they were tempted to design an island green, but we never got past peninsula greens, because they were committed to keeping 40-80 feet of width on the main path from cart path to green to spread wear out. 

The island also ignored their dogma of always having a bail out.....A good example of how designs differ if your priority is function equal to the wow factor.

Out of curiosity, what do you think doesn't function well?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 04:42:12 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 04:40:41 PM »
Matt,

Again, a great topic, and I think I have my basics for the next Golf Course Industry column.....It's hard to come up with topics month after month, and I do get several from initially thinking about posts here, this being a prime example of you helping me out in the idea department!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt Frey, PGA

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2016, 04:56:29 PM »
Matt,

Again, a great topic, and I think I have my basics for the next Golf Course Industry column.....It's hard to come up with topics month after month, and I do get several from initially thinking about posts here, this being a prime example of you helping me out in the idea department!


I'd love to read that!

Tom_Doak

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2016, 05:06:13 PM »


Another builds bunkers they knew would be rebuilt in a year (maybe by them) that look great and increase chances of "Best New" awards.  Is it right to make yourself look good (at least for a few years) by building something that looks great, but is a beast to maintain (depending on how sophisticated the owner is....some may know, want and agree with this plan)



A good way to reduce questions in that department is to do as Mr. Dye taught me ... guarantee that you will return to address any problems in the future, without charging additional design fees.  When you do that, clients accept that you're not incentivized to create headaches for yourself.  Of course, some clients may take advantage and keep bringing you back over trivial issues; there is no perfect system.


My worst design mistake was to (re)design a dogleg hole in such a way that players routinely try to cut the corner into another fairway.  That's a mistake one should only make one time.


Any "construction" mistakes we have made were all under the category of trying to save the client money on the front end.  Some of my most well-known courses [Barnbougle and Ballyneal, to name two] were undercapitalized at the start and had hard limits on the budget for irrigation and drainage [not that they needed much drainage, being in sand dunes].  Both have gotten by for 10-15 years now with their less than ideal coverage, and are in position to add more now if they really need it ... but they have learned from experience that they don't REALLY need it if they've gotten this far without it.




I have also seen golf holes that are played entirely differently by members from how the architect intended them to be played ... though I can't think of an example off the top of my head.  [There are none of those at Royal Melbourne where I am teeing it up later today.]
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 05:07:50 PM by Tom_Doak »

Greg Gilson

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2016, 05:09:39 PM »
Matt, thanks for the thought provoking topic & Jeff for the informative responses!

My first thought is one of my pet peeves...."pretty" bunker styles. This was raised in a discussion a few weeks ago. I shiver every time I see a bunch of these artificial bomb craters with dramatic tongues. They look great (to some) and may work wonderfully in advertising. However, they add nothing to the natural-ness of the 4 hour walk and are a chore to maintain for both the raking golfer & the ground staff. Ross Watson has built a ton of these on his recent courses down under including The Palms here at Sanctuary Cove.

PS. I would NOT have included TPC Sawgrass Stadium 17 here. In fact I think its the opposite (new thread?) ....its a hole that probably looked awful on paper at the time but ended up working just great!

Carl Rogers

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2016, 05:14:41 PM »
What I have seen in this field is that the designer, GCA, has a lot more control of things out in the field, which to my mind should make for fewer plausible excuses for a bad result.  One of TD's most interesting part of his web site is the essays, and in particular the "44 Decisions on a Friday".


I am a building Architect and its harder to cover-up or re-do mistakes .... lots of contracts, money, client pre-occupations, etc, etc.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2016, 06:30:02 PM »
What I have seen in this field is that the designer, GCA, has a lot more control of things out in the field, which to my mind should make for fewer plausible excuses for a bad result.  One of TD's most interesting part of his web site is the essays, and in particular the "44 Decisions on a Friday".


I am a building Architect and its harder to cover-up or re-do mistakes .... lots of contracts, money, client pre-occupations, etc, etc.

Carl,

I knew from age 7 or 8 that I would be a designer.  It wasn't until I started playing golf I even considered golf architecture, but once I did, I never looked back.  However, until then, I figured I would design cities or buildings.  That is, until one day, my dad brought me a bunch of architecture books home from the library.  One was "Lawsuits against architects" which was in the back of my mind when I decided on golf design.  I figured golf courses couldn't possibly fall down and get me sued!  (turns out, some have settled in the mud....)

And, one of the great things about golf design is the relative lack of precision in most cases.  Miss by a quarter inch in architecture and you get a pretty cold room in winter.  I have seen golf architects move a green a quarter mile or more.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hellrung

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2016, 06:32:48 PM »
Oooh! I thought of a good one.  Several courses I've played in the past few years have started growing in the area between the tee box and landing zone with native grasses or a meadow-like look.  I'm a big fan of this look from a conservation and aesthetic standpoint, but I've played a couple courses where the native grasses get so tall as to block some views of the holes.  I've got a picture of one of the holes at Brasstown Valley that illustrates my point.  I'll see if I can find it and post.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2016, 06:40:56 PM »


Another builds bunkers they knew would be rebuilt in a year (maybe by them) that look great and increase chances of "Best New" awards.  Is it right to make yourself look good (at least for a few years) by building something that looks great, but is a beast to maintain (depending on how sophisticated the owner is....some may know, want and agree with this plan)


A good way to reduce questions in that department is to do as Mr. Dye taught me ... guarantee that you will return to address any problems in the future, without charging additional design fees.  When you do that, clients accept that you're not incentivized to create headaches for yourself.  Of course, some clients may take advantage and keep bringing you back over trivial issues; there is no perfect system.


Hmm, the architect I was thinking about wasn't, to my knowledge, going back for free.  And, I have been paid to come back to some of my courses for bunker reductions recently.  I don't think an architect should necessarily design a course for the next recession, although, we all know they are coming.  That said, I would love a mulligan for a lot of little things at nearly every project I have done.  Maybe some only I would know, others I have just changed my philosophy a bit.  The bunker reductions are a case in point.  After doing so many,  I have convinced myself that all of us really built bigger bunkers than we needed.  I like the smaller scale of the reduced bunkers as it makes the green the main visual target.  But, in the 1990's the trend was to build bigger to stand out visually. So, times change for a lot of reasons.

I will admit to building a dogleg for Killian and Nugent that was so sharp, it actually played better, and the same distance, by hitting an 8 iron near the pond, over a driver that went to a narrower landing zone.  But yes, only once.

And, like Tom, I think all architects learn over the years that there is a limit to how cheap you want to go when an Owner is underfunded.  It can be worse than overspending.  Of course, we all have our own ideas on what constitutes "just right" spending.

Joe,

A lot of holes have not anticipated the extra 3-4 feet of tall grass.  I once played a Pete Dye water par 3 where the cattails had grown up to hide the green.  Both tee and green were set low to the water to bring it into focus (probably to be more intimidating) but when open water converted to wetlands, things changed. 

Actually (and believe it or not, just had this debate an hour ago) somewhere (maybe Pete) it became popular to place greens low to the water.  In reality, I think two foot above is the minimum, and 3-4 feet is better.  Even when there is no flood risk, golfers feel like they may "get their feet wet" and just prefer to be a bit higher off the water.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2016, 07:35:55 PM »
Speaking of adding length to tees. One issue I have come across is platform tees playing to a green/fairway well below.  Sometimes, from the back tees, the view is blocked by the front of the tee.  To me this is a bad mistake for an archie to make, but not all that uncommon.   


At my home course we have a par 3 with the reverse issue.  The forward tee is raised above the daily tee, making for an awkward visual aesthetic.  The forward tee should have been lowered to save mucking up the sight lines.   


At another area of my home course, the ladies tee was built up using sand fill from a pond dug for water preservation purposes.  The shaping job of the tee was done very badly in that a bowl in front of the tee was created which gets flooded at times....very bad design. 


Speaking of playing to other fairways, at my club we are adding a tee which will sometimes be a complete pig to reach the fairway. I reckon there will be times that folks will play the up the wrong fairway to avoid the horrible carry in a reverse wind. 


Portrush's Valley Course has a situation like this with its 10th hole.  From the forward tee the drive is a blind par 4 of 470ish yards.  From the back tee its a short par 5.  The thing is that from the back tee it is very obvious that the play for the drive is to the 9th fairway...awful design. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

James Brown

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2016, 07:39:21 PM »
Would #10 at Augusta fall into this category?  The hole today is nothing like the original. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2016, 08:00:08 PM »
Good thread. A home that is so lovely and integrated into its surroundings gets a lot of leeway from me, especially since I once spent an entire summer doing nothing but repairing the already cracked/leaking foundation walls of a whole subdivision of newly built (and wholly non-descript) homes. We seem sometimes to expect/demand more functionality from the beautiful/natural than we do from the cookie cutter/banal, even though the latter have little else going for them save for that supposed functionality. All of which is to say: I've played simple, modest, lay of the land courses with bad drainage (in spots) and I've played expensive, unnatural and over engineered courses with bad drainage (in spots) -- and I'm more annoyed by far by the engineered courses, since they didn't deliver on the one thing they were meant to deliver.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 08:29:44 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John McCarthy

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2016, 08:22:04 PM »
I replayed a newish course last week which has a particular amazing green.  However there is no way to get enough daylight or air on it to make it truly shine.  There is a permanent fan but because it is near a massive tree lined entrance, which I assume is non negotiable to the membership, this barrel of monkeys green is wet and growing grass will be hard. 

Great design, going forward will always be a problem. 
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Mike_Young

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2016, 08:28:27 PM »
It's always been that way in golf design.  BUT a professional golfer signature type gets a pass where a regional guy doing the same thing will not be used to fix the problems.  I've seen supposedly USGA greens where the signature did the final float and had up to 30 inches of sand in some places.  I've seen it where a signature bunker takes water from an entire fairway and I've seen signature greens that allow water run directly onto the putting surface from surrounding hills in clay soils.  The same contractor that would build this for the signature would slam the regional guy to the owner.  Most developer types are jock sniffers as are many boards.  They approach the problem differently if the designer has won a major vs. the local guy who actually works in the field 60 hours or more each week.   It's all perception.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2016, 08:33:55 PM »
Good thread. A home that is so lovely and integrated into its surroundings gets a lot of leeway from me, especially since I once spent an entire summer doing nothing but repairing the cracked/leaking foundation walls of a whole subdivision of newly built homes. We seem sometimes to expect/demand more functionality from the beautiful/natural than we do from the cookie cutter/banal, even though the latter have little else going for them save for that supposed functionality. All of which is to say: I've played simple, modest, lay of the land courses with bad drainage (in spots) and I've played expensive, unnatural and over engineered courses with bad drainage (in spots) -- and I'm more annoyed by far by the engineered courses, since they didn't deliver on the one thing they were meant to deliver.

Peter,
So often what we accept is how we define bad.  Bad drainage on a lay of the land course that has a $30 green fee may be good drainage.  I'm saying if it would cost say $200,000 to fix drainage on a simple course and yet not fixing such would require play to be stopped for a day or two a few times each year, it might be practical not to fix it  AND our forefathers may have accepted that...we tend to compare with the top and don't accept it...today we so often strive for perfection in drainage and cartpaths etc and it just complicates things....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2016, 08:40:34 PM »
My #1 pet peeve by far, it's not even close, is the disdain for top soil management. It is one reason that sand capping has become so popular, it is easier, and a hell of a lot more profitable, than taking the time and care to properly protect top soil.
The idea that you can re mediate top soil by ripping it with a dozer and throwing a little chicken poop on it is just nuts. Working wet soils, not controlling traffic, pushing it up into huge piles that can't breath...or worse yet just disc it up, then shape without setting aside the top layer, then disc again prior to finishing so it looks like it has some tilth, then smearing the crap out of it with a box blade... all done in the interest of fast and easy construction. Then just blame the supt if the grass looks like crap for the first few years.

BCowan

Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2016, 08:45:47 PM »
Good thread. A home that is so lovely and integrated into its surroundings gets a lot of leeway from me, especially since I once spent an entire summer doing nothing but repairing the cracked/leaking foundation walls of a whole subdivision of newly built homes. We seem sometimes to expect/demand more functionality from the beautiful/natural than we do from the cookie cutter/banal, even though the latter have little else going for them save for that supposed functionality. All of which is to say: I've played simple, modest, lay of the land courses with bad drainage (in spots) and I've played expensive, unnatural and over engineered courses with bad drainage (in spots) -- and I'm more annoyed by far by the engineered courses, since they didn't deliver on the one thing they were meant to deliver.


Peter,
So often what we accept is how we define bad.  Bad drainage on a lay of the land course that has a $30 green fee may be good drainage.  I'm saying if it would cost say $200,000 to fix drainage on a simple course and yet not fixing such would require play to be stopped for a day or two a few times each year, it might be practical not to fix it  AND our forefathers may have accepted that...we tend to compare with the top and don't accept it...today we so often strive for perfection in drainage and cartpaths etc and it just complicates things....


Mike,

   Back in the day folks rolled up their sleeves and installed drainage.  Drainage is of most importance.  My grandfather did this, they had an attachment to their course.  They weren't yuppie tools.  I was born 100 years too late. 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 09:05:23 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Steve Lang

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2016, 09:10:16 PM »
 8)  Ben,


Draining the Black Swamp of NW Ohio was one thing...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

BCowan

Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2016, 09:29:16 PM »
Steve,

  sylvania cc is sand dune, tamaron sand dune, stoned joke is all sand, Highland meadows sandy loam, Inverness decent farm soil.  We got it pretty good in Ole t town, no need to go to n michigan for sand

Tom_Doak

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Re: Abstract: Well-Intentioned Designs That Didn't Function as Planned?
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2016, 06:54:34 AM »
I replayed a newish course last week which has a particular amazing green.  However there is no way to get enough daylight or air on it to make it truly shine. 

Great design, going forward will always be a problem.

That is NOT great design.

I played what is supposedly one of the top 50 courses in the world last week where one green was completely dead due to salt spray and sand blow, and another was barely alive for the same reason.  I do think that having 18 greens with grass on them is a minimum standard for greatness!

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